D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

[dreamps]

ok so first i would like to say that this forum is great! i've been reading mostly for over a year and have learned a ton of info! thank you for all the info.

i bought a pcxp and a lot of supplies a few months back. I got a gallon of 151 after reading Tim Lingor review of the product.

I have slight swirls on my 08 grand cherokee that i was hoping to remove with the d151.

I used the PC on speed 5+6 with an orange 6.5 LC pad. i made 4-5 passes(left-right,up-down,left-right,up-down,left-right) with moderate pressure(15lbs) and noticed the swirls weren't removed.

I also tried doing a few passes on the same section with speed 3-4 and light pressure to jewel the process. This didn't help remove the swirls either

is there anything that i did wrong? should i use a wool pad? the truck was washed/clayed before i used 151

here is a pic to show what swirls are left. im guessing these are deeper and will need something more aggressive. can i get a way with swirlx or m205 or do i have to step up to UC or 105?

Thank you

before d151



After d151

[BarryK]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

I'm not Tim but perhaps I can put in my $.02 to try to assist...

I use D151 a lot - it's my daily go-to product for all of my standard customer details unless I am doing full multi-step paint correction so i'm pretty used to the product.

D151 is an excellent product and its strength is in it's all-in-one single step polish & wax convience.
The cut level is very close to or just a hair below that of M205 (cut level 4) which is considered a finishing polish.
What this means is that while it will remove some minor swirls and defects, depending on the hardness of the paint surface you are working with it very well may not remove them all even with a relatively aggressive pad like an orange pad.
If your combination of orange pad / D151 / speed 5 & 6 and with multiple passes didn't remove all of the swirls that tells you it's simply time to move up to a bit of a more aggressive product such as ScratchX, UC or M105.
keep in mind that the same combination that you already tried may be more effective and remove the swirls on a "softer" paint.
For example, yesterday I was doing a customer's Porsche Cayman S with a beautiful black metallic paint. It had a fair amount of swirkling but the customer decided against a full paint correction because this car is mainly a track car, not a show car and not even a street driven car anymore. After washing and claying I used my standard D151 with a 6.5" white pad (less aggressive pad that the orange one you used) with my Flex 3401. I knew from experience that the D151/white pad usually works pretty well and since I wasn't doing a paint correction job the swirls were a far secondary issue - I was more concerned about it just being clean, shiney, and slick. This car must have had relatively soft paint though because when I was done about 99% of the swirls were all gone and the car looked phenomenal.

Based on your results with the pad/product combination you used I recommend trying a more aggressive product next to eliminate the swirls.

Also, while you may not have had the "success" you expected with the D151 in this case don't give up on that product, it's really a very excellent and convenient product to have and use

[Nick Chapman]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

Well said Barry!

[Michael Stoops]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

As BarryK so beautifully points out, D151 is not an extremely aggressive product in and of itself. Part of it's beauty is the all in one nature of the product, but also that it can be mated to a wide variety of pads, including wool. But since you're working with a PCXP and not a rotary, wool is out of the question. Depending on how hard your paint is you may have just reached the limit of what you can do with this product on this paint.

Try stepping up to Ultimate Compound and odds are very good that you'll get rid of the swirls that remain. From the looks of things you probably don't need to go all the way up to M105. You can then use D151 as a routine maintenance product down the road, when only very light swirls are beginning to show. And they will.

[dreamps]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

I'm not Tim but perhaps I can put in my $.02 to try to assist...

I use D151 a lot - it's my daily go-to product for all of my standard customer details unless I am doing full multi-step paint correction so i'm pretty used to the product.

D151 is an excellent product and its strength is in it's all-in-one single step polish & wax convience.
The cut level is very close to or just a hair below that of M205 (cut level 4) which is considered a finishing polish.
What this means is that while it will remove some minor swirls and defects, depending on the hardness of the paint surface you are working with it very well may not remove them all even with a relatively aggressive pad like an orange pad.
If your combination of orange pad / D151 / speed 5 & 6 and with multiple passes didn't remove all of the swirls that tells you it's simply time to move up to a bit of a more aggressive product such as ScratchX, UC or M105.
keep in mind that the same combination that you already tried may be more effective and remove the swirls on a "softer" paint.
For example, yesterday I was doing a customer's Porsche Cayman S with a beautiful black metallic paint. It had a fair amount of swirkling but the customer decided against a full paint correction because this car is mainly a track car, not a show car and not even a street driven car anymore. After washing and claying I used my standard D151 with a 6.5" white pad (less aggressive pad that the orange one you used) with my Flex 3401. I knew from experience that the D151/white pad usually works pretty well and since I wasn't doing a paint correction job the swirls were a far secondary issue - I was more concerned about it just being clean, shiney, and slick. This car must have had relatively soft paint though because when I was done about 99% of the swirls were all gone and the car looked phenomenal.

Based on your results with the pad/product combination you used I recommend trying a more aggressive product next to eliminate the swirls.

Also, while you may not have had the "success" you expected with the D151 in this case don't give up on that product, it's really a very excellent and convenient product to have and use

Great answer barry!!! thanks! i guess the cc on the jeep is harder than i thought.

i also noticed that my pads were getting softer in the middle and actually started to concave inwards!!!

i wonder if i used too much pressure i do have the backing plate marked so i can see if the pad was still spinning and it was!

i guess i will just top this with m16 for the winter and in the spring i will go with UC to remove all the swirls.

thanks again!

As BarryK so beautifully points out, D151 is not an extremely aggressive product in and of itself. Part of it's beauty is the all in one nature of the product, but also that it can be mated to a wide variety of pads, including wool. But since you're working with a PCXP and not a rotary, wool is out of the question. Depending on how hard your paint is you may have just reached the limit of what you can do with this product on this paint.

Try stepping up to Ultimate Compound and odds are very good that you'll get rid of the swirls that remain. From the looks of things you probably don't need to go all the way up to M105. You can then use D151 as a routine maintenance product down the road, when only very light swirls are beginning to show. And they will.

thanks Michael! i will step up to UC in the spring. for now i will just throw in m16 for the winter. i must admit D151 did leave the car looking dripping wet!!!

i also rinsed the truck afterwords to get rid of all the dust and the water was beading like crazy!!!

[BarryK]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

Great answer barry!!! thanks! i guess the cc on the jeep is harder than i thought.

i also noticed that my pads were getting softer in the middle and actually started to concave inwards!!!

i wonder if i used too much pressure i do have the backing plate marked so i can see if the pad was still spinning and it was!

i guess i will just top this with m16 for the winter and in the spring i will go with UC to remove all the swirls.

thanks again!




thanks Michael! i will step up to UC in the spring. for now i will just throw in m16 for the winter. i must admit D151 did leave the car looking dripping wet!!!

i also rinsed the truck afterwords to get rid of all the dust and the water was beading like crazy!!!

with your PC it's easy to tell of you are applying too much pressure - the pad stops rotating. That's what the clutch is for and where a lot of the "safety" of the PC comes into play. If the pad was still rotating than you were not applying too much pressure

M16 is another excellent product but remember that the D151 has already put a nice protective layer of wax on your jeep. By topping that with M26 you are not really going to accomplish much. The single biggest advantage is that by applying a second coat (the #26 topping coat would be considered the second coat) you are making sure everything is covered with wax in case you accidently missed any areas on the first coat. Other than that you really aren't going to see much of a difference at all, if any.

On the other hand, I do tend to top a sealant, such as M21 with a nice wax such as #26, a lot

[dreamps]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

from what i read, M16 is suppose to be a really good winter wax. i was hoping that topping with m16 would give me a nice even coverage and would be a tougher wax than the d151. is this correct?

i also top nxt with #26 #26 is good stuff!!!

so you are saying go with #26 instead of m16 over d151 for winter protection?

yes i have 4 lines on my backing plate so i can see if i put too much pressure and if the bp stops rotating. another great tip i learned from Mike Phillips

[BarryK]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

I've actually never used #16, only heard good stuff about it (all good which is why I mentioned it was an excellent product). I can't really answer though if it's going to be more durable or not than the D151.
Again, the second coating will assure of of full vehicle coverage, but as for durability over D151 I can't say.

*MY* personal opinion, that others may or may not agree with, is that topping a SEALANT such as NXT 2.0, M21, etc with a Carnuba like #26 or #16 had advantages because sealants were always generally accepted as lasting a lot longer than a wax but didn't have quite the gloss or shine to them. Topping them with a nice wax like #26, etc make them pop and shine more and the end effect was a long lasting, impressive glossy finish.
On the other hand I never saw any advantage of topping one wax with another wax. If one wax is more durable than simply use it instead but topping it with another wax really isn't "gaining" anything that i've ever discovered EXCEPT to assure full coverage on the vehicle in case you might have missed areas on the first coat. Again, others may disagree and i'm willing to be proved wrong. (proved - not just told i'm wrong from individual opinions).

Of course once you bring D151 in the scenario changes a bit also since it's a dual purpose product - it polishes and waxes in one step. If you decide to top it with something else than you have really just defeated the entire purpose of the all-in-one one-step product. You might as well just grab a bottle of M205 or similar polish for the polish step and than apply what your ultimate choice is for the LSP.

[dreamps]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

I do agree with you Barry in the fact that topping 1 wax with another wax probably won't do much for the paint but my only concern is what wax is in d151? i dont know if it will be durable enough for the salty roads that i have to deal with on a daily basis. my truck is also a dd and is outside 24/7/365 days a year.

i only thought of putting m16 or #26 on top for added protection not so much as gloss.

if i were to do another coat of d151 should i just use a blue/black pad from LC and speed 3/4 or since im not really looking for more correction?

[tcope1]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

Some good information in this thread. Just a few notes:

A step up in cutting power is Scratch X 2.0, not just Scratch X.... though it should be hard to find Scratch X any more but I've seen some stores still have it on the shelves. Scratch X 2.0 is just under Ultimate Compound in cutting power. Scratch X is much lower.

If you go with UC, I'd recommend shaking the bottles before buying to sense if it seems like water or a lotion. You want it to sound/feel like a lotion. At least in my experience I was making 3 passes with the UC that was light water and accomplished the same in 1 pass with the UC that was light lotion.

I'm not expert but I've found that using the DA on speed 6 causes the polish/compound to flash pretty quickly. I say "flash", as I think this means the liquid dries quickly and turns to dust. I've even noticed a difference between a 5.5 setting and 6. At least on my PC there is a noticeable difference between the dial being all the way up and just slightly down a hair.

I noticed my 4" LC pads curled up as you mentioned but only after a few washes. I think this is because the hook and loop backing dried differently then the foam so it bows the pad a little. With just the slightest of pressure the pad should flatten out so I don't think it should be an issue.

I'd recommend M16 on top of anything for a winter wax. M16 IMHO is a great, lasting product for those times when you won't be able to wax every few months. It does not contain any polishes so it should not remove any sealants. I also use it in my metal wheel wells and I don't remove it after applied.

[dreamps]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

Some good information in this thread. Just a few notes:

A step up in cutting power is Scratch X 2.0, not just Scratch X.... though it should be hard to find Scratch X any more but I've seen some stores still have it on the shelves. Scratch X 2.0 is just under Ultimate Compound in cutting power. Scratch X is much lower.

cool i will try a test spot with uc/scratch x 2.0 come spring time

If you go with UC, I'd recommend shaking the bottles before buying to sense if it seems like water or a lotion. You want it to sound/feel like a lotion. At least in my experience I was making 3 passes with the UC that was light water and accomplished the same in 1 pass with the UC that was light lotion.

ill def remember this as i have read others also had the same issue. mostly from walmart

I'm not expert but I've found that using the DA on speed 6 causes the polish/compound to flash pretty quickly. I say "flash", as I think this means the liquid dries quickly and turns to dust. I've even noticed a difference between a 5.5 setting and 6. At least on my PC there is a noticeable difference between the dial being all the way up and just slightly down a hair.

yes i also noticed that yesterday!!! speed 6 on the pcxp definitely makes the product flash quickly!!!

I noticed my 4" LC pads curled up as you mentioned but only after a few washes. I think this is because the hook and loop backing dried differently then the foam so it bows the pad a little. With just the slightest of pressure the pad should flatten out so I don't think it should be an issue.

this is odd b/c both pads that i used were brand new!!! i washed them out and the middle still feels like its con-caved in! i hope i didn't damage them on the first use lolol

I'd recommend M16 on top of anything for a winter wax. M16 IMHO is a great, lasting product for those times when you won't be able to wax every few months. It does not contain any polishes so it should not remove any sealants. I also use it in my metal wheel wells and I don't remove it after applied.

awesome!!! i really wanted to try this after hearing so many good things about it! i will most likely put this on over the d151 for my winter protection. here in nj/pa it gets cold quick and snows often

i also snowboard so i go to places where the roads are covered with salt

[mr.haributo]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

This was my result w/ D151 and M16 for a 1-step correction.

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37380

[dreamps]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

that's an amazing job with the s4! i remember reading that thread when you posted it!

maybe speed 6 was too high and maybe i put too much pressure with the orange lc pads. im sure there is something i did wrong but i tried several scenarios and couldn't get the swirls out. i can't imagine the jeep CC being harder than the audi paint!

[Tim Lingor]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

ok so first i would like to say that this forum is great! i've been reading mostly for over a year and have learned a ton of info! thank you for all the info.

i bought a pcxp and a lot of supplies a few months back. I got a gallon of 151 after reading Tim Lingor review of the product.

I have slight swirls on my 08 grand cherokee that i was hoping to remove with the d151.

I used the PC on speed 5+6 with an orange 6.5 LC pad. i made 4-5 passes(left-right,up-down,left-right,up-down,left-right) with moderate pressure(15lbs) and noticed the swirls weren't removed.

I also tried doing a few passes on the same section with speed 3-4 and light pressure to jewel the process. This didn't help remove the swirls either

is there anything that i did wrong? should i use a wool pad? the truck was washed/clayed before i used 151

here is a pic to show what swirls are left. im guessing these are deeper and will need something more aggressive. can i get a way with swirlx or m205 or do i have to step up to UC or 105?

Thank you

before d151



After d151

Hey,

Let's see if we can help you get rid of those swirls...

Firstly, I just want to clarify that D151 is actually between M83 and M66 Solo in terms of aggressiveness. So while it may finish down similar to M205, it is far more aggressive. Therefore depending on how it is used, D151 may 'act' like a light cleaner/compound, when in reality, it is fairly aggressive.

From your description, the problem I am seeing is the way you are using the product. As mentioned, you need to apply moderate pressure to the DA set to speed 5 (speed 6 will cause the product to dust) and work the product in extremely well, which could mean anywhere from 1-3 minutes depending on temperature and humidity. Reduce your working area down to a 18"x18" area and do many overlapping passes: up/down/ side to side etc. Because of the SMAT abrasives, they will not break down per se, but the lubricating oils will, so buff the product until it appears to be drying up and then stop; Do NOT dry buff. Wipe off with a high quality MF towel and repeat if necessary. I would stick with the Meguiar's polishing pads as some paints are very scratch sensitive and even a mild cutting pad could instill marring back into the finish.

Secondly, D151's abrasives are quite sensitive to downward pressure. Keep applying the pressure during the entire buffing cycle. Moreover, be sure to reduce the amount of product being applied to the pad as the pad becomes saturated.

Finally, and one of the most important steps, prime the pad with D151 first. Make a couple of rings of product around the pad and then work it into the pad with your fingers, ensuring complete coverage. Then add a small thin ring for buffing a given area. Be SURE to clean the pad after every panel and then use a fresh clean pad when you switch sides and when doing the horizontal surfaces. Again, because the SMAT's do not break down, they will build up on the pad along with the removed paint. Constant cleaning is the key!

If that does not do it, then please report back as we may need to take another approach. Either way, we will help you get rid of those swirls!

Tim

[dreamps]

Re: D151 help (paging Tim Lingor)

Hey Tim,

I definitely noticed the swirls did get a smaller but still were there.

I did prime the pad but maybe i used too much d151. How "wet" should the pad be? i felt that the pad was fairly wet. after primed the pad got a lot softer than when it was without any product.

The pad started to concave inwards in the middle and if i pressed down the pad was wet the most in the middle although i did prime evenly.

i noticed on speed 6 that d151 flashed very quickly. I don't think i cleaned the pad enough. i was using a microfiber towel with a tight nap to clean on the fly.

i used 2 orange pads on my truck and thought i cleaned them enough but maybe not. it sounds as if i wasn't using too much product after i re-read your post. sometimes when i applied a few dots on and applied i couldn't see the cream on the paint. i def did not work it long enough.

regarding downward pressure. how much do you press down roughly at speed 5? i would say the pad rotates 2-3 per sec. i checked with a scale and i believe i use around 15-20 lbs of pressure.

the next day it is clear ill try to do a small test spot again to see how it works. i'll do a wipe down to remove the d151 and then re-apply. hopefully it will work out.

thanks again!