Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

[RGP]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

Too deep for my feeble mind. My daughter has a PhD. and I can't understand a word she says either... It was a skillfully written article however. Nice to see we can have a meaningful multisyllabic discussion, even if I can't understand it.

[Tim Lingor]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

Excellent write-up Al!

Your insights gives one information to ponder over. There is the self-fulfilling prophecy that says if you call someone a loser enough times, they become one. However, the parallel to this is if you keep believing something though your belief is based on speculation and innuendo, you may end up believing you are correct on a topic when alas you are not. I am sure we have all had those arguments with people that base their opinion on nothing more than what they believe, and no matter what proof is shown or lack there of, they will continue to believe what they do, even if they are totally in error.

When it comes to tool abuse, the point that I want received is that some are speculating that the PC will fail prematurely when using the KBM. Having taken apart the PC, G100 and the G110 down to the last bolt, I would challenge anyone to show me how the PC would prematurely fail from using the KBM. Anything short of analysis of a sampling of units leading to failure through said method is nothing more that foolhardy speculation. The tool is advertised as a polisher by Porter Cable and you are doing as such.


I appreciate these discussions! Well done Al!

Tim

[Kevin Brown]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

Too deep for my feeble mind. My daughter has a PhD. and I can't understand a word she says either... It was a skillfully written article however. Nice to see we can have a meaningful multisyllabic discussion, even if I can't understand it.

I am having a tough time keeping up, too!

[Kevin Brown]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

There is the self-fulfilling prophecy that says if you call someone a loser enough times, they become one. However, the parallel to this is if you keep believing something though your belief is based on speculation and innuendo, you may end up believing you are correct on a topic when alas you are not. I am sure we have all had those arguments with people that base their opinion on nothing more than what they believe, and no matter what proof is shown or lack there of, they will continue to believe what they do, even if they are totally in error.

Well put.

The alternative to debate and information sharing is this:

Not so good in the long run.

[akimel]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

I am having a tough time keeping up, too!

Kevin, I included the animated videos in the post just so you could keep up ...

[RGP]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

I am having a tough time keeping up, too!

I'm still tryin' to figure out how to get that flat, round, purple thingie back into the lid of my NXT 2.0 paste.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

kevin, i included the animated videos in the post just so you could keep up ... :d

lol

[Bounty]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

. Until there is any more solid evidence of the KBM, this method of detailing is just like The Little Mermaid... A Fairy Tale.

....I think this is by far the most important thing to keep in mind whenever discussing the KBM in our current climate. The reality is Kevin has directly instructed and fully explained the process to a handful of detailers. He has had a few others "proof" sections of his paper and critique processes and language (Kevin, correct me if I'm wrong on this).

On the other hand, across the various forums, you have hundreds of posters attempting to "teach" or "instruct" others on the method. Thousands claim to have used the method or currently be employing it. That begs the question...what exactly are they doing? Are they spreading polish across the pad surface like butter and claiming it's KBM? Do they know the physics behind the action of the machine that lends the method it's success? Do they understand the SMAT technology properties which achieve polishing feats with this machine/process combination over something with DAT technology? Do they know which pad types are preferable and why? Do they comprehend the proper use of wetting agents and the most appropriate time to employ them? Are they so well versed in the KBM to the extent they can tweak the process when used with different machine types and their varying mechanical actions?

The reality is the answer to most of those is "NO." As such, I'd respectfully suggest that we all await the official publication of the Kevin Brown "paper" before attacking or defending anyone or any technique. Once it's in your hands you can crack open a cold one and digest the many pages of information, put it into practice, and judge for yourself. Only then will you really be qualified to offer an educated opinion. Everything in life will have proponents and detractors and if you get caught up in either's diatribes you'll soon find yourself chasing your tail.

I personally feel the KBM as demonstrated/taught to me by Todd Helme is one that can offer success in a multiplicity of situations and augment the corrective power of ROB polishers. But to utilize it to full effect it requires a fair amount of understanding of the physics involved and knowledge of the products and processes used. These are things reading the paper and practicing the process will instill. Once you've operated from this base of experience...effective and valuable discussion can ensue.

I for one am anxiously awaiting the publication of the paper as are many others...

[rusty bumper]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

Thanks for the writeup Kevin.

After following up on the link you provided, I see that you recommend using a nylon brush for pad cleaning. That's good to know, because I've been using the same tool for years now, and it does a great job.

Looking forward to your paper when it is released.

[rusty bumper]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

Excellent write-up Al!

When it comes to tool abuse, the point that I want received is that some are speculating that the PC will fail prematurely when using the KBM. Having taken apart the PC, G100 and the G110 down to the last bolt, I would challenge anyone to show me how the PC would prematurely fail from using the KBM. Anything short of analysis of a sampling of units leading to failure through said method is nothing more that foolhardy speculation. The tool is advertised as a polisher by Porter Cable and you are doing as such.

Wish I had the guts to do that.

Mine could probably use a bit of grease.

[Eddie6th]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

I consider any kind of polishing an art. Any information regarding techniques is useful. But what works perfectly for one might not be the case for another. Apart from experience,it is also an art which requires feeling and some people don't have this attribute and unfortunatley will never be able to do what others can do. One person can pick up a rotary and be doing good within an hour and progress his work as time goes on.Another person can practice for a month and still not be doing anything correctly.
There are hard rules which are used when working with machinery,but that's only part.Circumstance will change some of the parameters.I havn't read much about the KBM,but from what I've read here,is it's quite a detailed approach.Can everyone replicate this approach?
Apart from detailing my cars,I also clean and repair guitars for people.If they want them polished,I use the rotary if it is neccessary.I am in fact doing one right now.I'm using the same equipment and similair products,but the technique is entirely different.I have to be very aware of rapid heat build up due to the fact that underneath is wood,and heat can cause the grain to raise and crack the laquer.But at the same time I've got to get rid of scratches.
I manage okay,but it's different and that's what I love about this subject.

I think this can apply to any skilled operation.

Just as an example,Tiger Woods might make a great golf teacher.Everyone he teaches will be as good as him? No.Chances are that he plays entirely different from the way people are taught by good teachers or the way they should develop a technique.Probably if they try to copy his technique,they won't be able to play.

I think the same can be said for polishing.After reading a lot of threads,it's amazing how many different approaches there are,with good results.As long as people report their methods,we can all benefit by taking an idea and see if it suits our styles.


Did you know Al,that Stan laurel combed his hair with a fork in a film called 'Pack up your Troubles'? He also used a hot water bottle for storing his coffee and a helmet as a wash hand basin!

[the_invisible]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

Did you know Al,that Stan laurel combed his hair with a fork in a film called 'Pack up your Troubles'? He also used a hot water bottle for storing his coffee and a helmet as a wash hand basin!

Combing one's hair in reality is not really an abuse of the fork. Rather it is an abuse of one's hair!!!

[mcox]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

This is a GREAT thread! Thanks Al, Kevin, and all others who have chimed in.

[CieraSL]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

Is it constituted as abuse if an object (or tool) is used in a manner for which it was never intended, and cannot even be used for any other manner other than that for which it was intended? This is a quote from another thread:

On other forums I always hear Meguiars bashing because people have tried M7 Show Car Glaze (or MANY other products) without understanding the purpose of the product and complain that it doesn't do what they think it's supposed to. For example - "blah blah blah I used Show Car Glaze and it doesn't bead at all, was almost impossible to remove after letting it dry, and the didn't seem to protect the paint at all"

If somebody, deliberately or unintentionally, uses M07 (for example) as a wax instead of using it as a pure polish as it is intended to, is this considered abuse? A hammer that is left outside in the rain to rust has been mistreated, can we say the same thing with this example of M07? Or if some fool uses NXT 2.0 as a tire dressing instead of as a paint protectant (not that anybody would, I merely use this as a point of reference), has the product in question been abused or mistreated? In the TV series Macgyver, the character of Macgyver uses everyday household items to get out of scrapes and situations, not abusing or misusing the tools, but rather putting them to a purpose which suits his present need for an escape route, diversion, desire to gain access to a restricted area, etc. However, if a tool is used in a manner for which it is neither intended nor suited for (the fork is intended for eating, but it suited itself for brushing Ariel's hair) and may actually cause damage and/or undesirable consequences, is this abuse?

[Kevin Brown]

Re: Dinglehoppers and the Abuse of Tools

Combing one's hair in reality is not really an abuse of the fork. Rather it is an abuse of one's hair!!!

I suppose I would need a spoon then because my hair has left the building!