Problem with hologram

[tincan]

Hi

Last weekend i did some paint correction on the driver side panel with swirlx and scracthx2.0 by hand. i did remove 90% of the swirls but the next day i saw some holograms under the sun light. I use halogen light to look for swirls. How to properly remove hologram by hand?

I am working on a black paint.

What are the techniques to avoid ending up with hologram after paint correction by hand.

thanks in advance

[Tuck91]

Re: Problem with hologram

might need to move down to something less aggressive, such as SwirlX.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Problem with hologram

Just to make sure, did you use the ScratchX 2.0 first, and the SwirlX after?

What did you use to apply the product? Foam pad? Terry pad/towel?

One thing you can try is to use less pressure with the SwirlX for the final passes as it will not cut as deeply.

[Bounty]

Re: Problem with hologram

What are the techniques to avoid ending up with hologram after paint correction by hand.

What do you mean by holograms? The laws of physics would tend to disagree with the ability of the human hand to instill holograms per se, but they could be another defect such as micromarring, hazing, tracers, etc.

Here's a thread of a recent hologram-removal detail I performed. Do they look like this:

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=329597#post329597

[Eddie6th]

Re: Problem with hologram

I would agree with Bounty.Are you sure it's not something else?

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Problem with hologram

I have a feeling he is referring to something like this:


Which was caused by hand use, not machine. They are very similar to rotary style holograms.

[Bounty]

Re: Problem with hologram

I have a feeling he is referring to something like this. Which was caused by hand use, not machine. They are very similar to rotary style holograms.

Once again the benefits of a test area are shown...if you complete your test spot and pull it into the sun you can check your work. In this case you'd have the above tracers over one small section versus the entire car...

[tincan]

Re: Problem with hologram

might need to move down to something less aggressive, such as SwirlX.

Just to make sure, did you use the ScratchX 2.0 first, and the SwirlX after?

What did you use to apply the product? Foam pad? Terry pad/towel?

One thing you can try is to use less pressure with the SwirlX for the final passes as it will not cut as deeply.

Actually there is a problem wiping off both swirlx and scratchx. I couldn't completely remove it, so i use DC1 and it works. I use foam pad and work the product for about 1 minute. The temperature is very hot about 85F-90F. First i used swirlx and if 2 applications don't work, i move to scratchx. After i use swirlx then scratchx, do i need to use swirlx again? Does temperature effect the difficulty in removing the product? I even tried to remove it after about 10 sec while it still wet but still left some behind.

I tried to use a lot of pressure, though it will eventually drop. It is very tiring, that's why i do 1 panel a week. I will try it and see the result.

What do you mean by holograms? The laws of physics would tend to disagree with the ability of the human hand to instill holograms per se, but they could be another defect such as micromarring, hazing, tracers, etc.

Here's a thread of a recent hologram-removal detail I performed. Do they look like this:

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/sho...597#post329597

It is something like those vertical lines on the first 2 pictures. I will try to get some pictures over the weekend. I don't have digital camera only nokia n95, a bit hard to capture the defect.

[Bounty]

Re: Problem with hologram

Actually there is a problem wiping off both swirlx and scratchx. I couldn't completely remove it, so i use DC1 and it works. I use foam pad and work the product for about 1 minute. The temperature is very hot about 85F-90F. First i used swirlx and if 2 applications don't work, i move to scratchx. After i use swirlx then scratchx, do i need to use swirlx again? Does temperature effect the difficulty in removing the product? I even tried to remove it after about 10 sec while it still wet but still left some behind.

By chance are you doing this in direct sunlight or are you in a covered and secured work area?

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Problem with hologram

Actually there is a problem wiping off both swirlx and scratchx. I couldn't completely remove it, so i use DC1 and it works. I use foam pad and work the product for about 1 minute. The temperature is very hot about 85F-90F. First i used swirlx and if 2 applications don't work, i move to scratchx. After i use swirlx then scratchx, do i need to use swirlx again? Does temperature effect the difficulty in removing the product? I even tried to remove it after about 10 sec while it still wet but still left some behind.

Ok, first things to discuss would be the surface temperature and if you are working in direct sun or not. You definitely do not want to be working on a hot surface and/or in direct sun. That is likely the root of the problem, and at the very least is contributing greatly to it.

Removing the residue from either SwirlX or ScratchX2.0 should be fairly effortless. If you are having issues than you are either working the product too long, or the surface is too hot (or both).

As for order of operations, the ScratchX 2.0 is more aggressive than the SwirlX, so after you use the ScratchX 2.0 you will want to follow with the SwirlX and slightly less pressure (since you are having these issues).

You should not need to use DC1.

I tried to use a lot of pressure, though it will eventually drop. It is very tiring, that's why i do 1 panel a week. I will try it and see the result.

Well using a lot of pressure for the initial defect removal is likely necessary, and good. But for the final finishing passes you want to let up on the pressure so you do not leave as deep of cuts. What you are describing as holograms is light refracting off of grooves left from the product being pushed into the paint. So what you need to do is go over the area again with less pressure to remove the grooves you created last time.

[tincan]

Re: Problem with hologram

I would agree with Bounty.Are you sure it's not something else?

I have a feeling he is referring to something like this:


Which was caused by hand use, not machine. They are very similar to rotary style holograms.

Once again the benefits of a test area are shown...if you complete your test spot and pull it into the sun you can check your work. In this case you'd have the above tracers over one small section versus the entire car...

Right, it looks something like that. Is it hologram or something else?

If less pressure on final wipe doesn't work, any other suggestions to remove it?

Is there anything that i shouldn't do to avoid creating it again?

By chance are you doing this in direct sunlight or are you in a covered and secured work area?

No, the work area is covered with canopy. I don't have a garage and i park my car on the left side. So i always work on the right side which is in the middle of the canopy or the back side.

[FLINTstone]

Re: Problem with hologram

I have a feeling he is referring to something like this:

if i saw my car like this after hours of "detailing" and working on it i would kill myself

[tincan]

Re: Problem with hologram

Ok, first things to discuss would be the surface temperature and if you are working in direct sun or not. You definitely do not want to be working on a hot surface and/or in direct sun. That is likely the root of the problem, and at the very least is contributing greatly to it.

Removing the residue from either SwirlX or ScratchX2.0 should be fairly effortless. If you are having issues than you are either working the product too long, or the surface is too hot (or both).

As for order of operations, the ScratchX 2.0 is more aggressive than the SwirlX, so after you use the ScratchX 2.0 you will want to follow with the SwirlX and slightly less pressure (since you are having these issues).

You should not need to use DC1.


Well using a lot of pressure for the initial defect removal is likely necessary, and good. But for the final finishing passes you want to let up on the pressure so you do not leave as deep of cuts. What you are describing as holograms is light refracting off of grooves left from the product being pushed into the paint. So what you need to do is go over the area again with less pressure to remove the grooves you created last time.

I start washing at about 9am and finish drying the car in 1.5-2hrs. By then, the temperature is very hot. I will start correcting the pain at 4 pm when things are getting cooler.

I will give it a try this sunday, hopefully it will work out well. It all makes sense now.

Thanks Mark, thanks everybody

Enjoy your weekend, although my weekend will be a pain in the arm but i enjoy every step it takes from washing to waxing my car

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Problem with hologram

No problem- that's what we're here for

Start testing with the SwirlX and medium pressure to see if that helps. If not, try light pressure and reassess.

Let us know how it goes.

Mark

[Bounty]

Re: Problem with hologram

No problem- that's what we're here for

Start testing with the SwirlX and medium pressure to see if that helps. If not, try light pressure and reassess.

Let us know how it goes.

Mark

I'm going with Mark on this one. There's really only three things that could potentially be going on when working by hand although that's enough to wreak havoc. Technique, product, or environment. Let's look at each one.

Technique. The human hand can apply quite a bit of force...especially with body weight behind it. Using more aggressive applicators like terry towels, terry applicators, or microfiber applicators can be more prone to scouring the surface than a pure foam applicator. You state that the products you're working with can begin to severely dry within 10 to 20 seconds of initial application. This is bad! After the product dries you are dry-buffing the paint surface and can definitely lead to the "tracers" you are witnessing. Hard pressure, particularly in striaght lines, can lead to pressure variations at the beginning and ending of the swipe pattern and can also potentially lead to these marks. Basically you are burning, marring, or etching the paint at the pressure edge.

Product. If the product is drying out so rapidly you may have a damaged or defective product. I don't know the travel pattern of a bottle from California to Indonesia but it may have been damaged in transit through exposure to temperature extremes or it may be an old bottle or it could just be defective from the factory. Lots of unknowns here.

Environment. Heat is a big enemy to polishes and compounds. If working in direct sunlight...stop. This would definitely explain the rapid drying and difficult removal. Also, direct sunlight may not be the only issue. If the panel is hot to the touch or even very warm it can also affect product performance as can humidity extremes. Then there are potential factors such as pad contamination, paint surface contamination, etc. Another wide range of variables that needs to be addressed and ruled out.

My suggestion would be to go back to your test area when the panel is cool to the touch. Completely decontaminate the surface bu washing and claying. Wash again after claying to insure no residue exists. Grab a foam applicator and a new bottle of product. Use firm circular motions with medium to light pressure. Your goal is even coverage and the reduction or leveling of the clear along the pressure ridges created during intial defect removal. Check the product for signs of drying. Work it 30 to 45 seconds, wipe off, and inspect. If you have removed the tracers then stop. If you have acheived significant reduction then go for another pass. If it gets worse or does not affect the area then we need to stop and reassess.

Hope this helps...