Arm speed questions with M105/M205

[dnoraker]

I have settled into a routine of rotary/M205/yellow polishing pad and DA/M205/black finishing pad for most of my work with the occasional rotary/M105/solo wool light cutting pad for more aggressive work. I'm in love, and I want to refine my technique, but....

I'm a little confused about arm speed and work area. I can't afford to waste time on a detail job over-finessing the paint, nor can I afford to spend a whole weekend on my car or spread the job out over 3-4 weekends when I have a wife, kid and house to take care of as well.

With the rotary, I find myself using for any product the rate of about 10-12" per second in open areas, or maybe 6-8" in cramped areas. I usually go twice in each direction, overlapping passes by 50% and slowing the machine speed down for the last pass. I work an area about 24" squared, or maybe 12"x36".

With the DA, I tend to move more like 4-6" per second. I have only used the DA with a finishing pad and M205 to knock out rotary holograms and not any serious paint correction. The arm speeds I've seen posted have been around 1-2" per second, which seems like a snail's pace to me and would take like 4-5 hours per pass around an average vehicle! I usually work an area about 18-24" squared, or a little smaller than the area I would polish with a rotary.

Any suggestions? I've been getting stellar results on the last couple details. I just did my Altima on Saturday and used these arm speeds and work area that I mentioned, sometimes fast arm speed and bigger area in some cases, and got results that easily surpass what I've seen before.

I have the DA polishing video with the black Corvette and pretty much follow that technique, though I tend to move faster and work bigger areas.

With the SMAT products, have people been finding that they've changed their arm speed or work area?

I just want to make sure I'm not wasting any time, or worse, moving too fast and sacrificing even greater results, though I'm having a hard time picturing that after 5 years owning a DA and 3 with a rotary. The depth of gloss and reflectivity I'm getting are beyond what I've ever gotten finishing with the DA. I used to have to finish with Scratch-X all the time because M80 left micro-marring on most cars I buffed. With the same process and using M205 instead, no problems.

Any full-time, pro, experienced detailers in the Minneapolis area that could watch me sometime for an hour or two and see if I'm being efficient and effective?

Thanks!

[jmakado]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

I tend to use slower arm speeds. Especially the rotary speed you listed.

But, in the end, if you are happy and/or your customers are happy then you're getting the job done right!

[Bounty]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

I tend to use slower arm speeds. Especially the rotary speed you listed.

But, in the end, if you are happy and/or your customers are happy then you're getting the job done right!

...sounds awfully fast to me but if you're achieving hologram-free finishes at that speed then by all means continue with what has worked for you. A foot per second in my head just seems more like you're swinging it then really working in the product and you're probably giving up some correction ability. With the DA a speed approximating 1 to 2" per second really allows the product/pad combination to "bite" and remove defects. Since you're not removing swirls with the DA but rather using it for finishing work, your speed there seems acceptable.

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

I have settled into a routine of rotary/M205/yellow polishing pad and DA/M205/black finishing pad for most of my work with the occasional rotary/M105/solo wool light cutting pad for more aggressive work. I'm in love, and I want to refine my technique, but....

I'm a little confused about arm speed and work area. I can't afford to waste time on a detail job over-finessing the paint, nor can I afford to spend a whole weekend on my car or spread the job out over 3-4 weekends when I have a wife, kid and house to take care of as well.

With the rotary, I find myself using for any product the rate of about 10-12" per second in open areas, or maybe 6-8" in cramped areas. I usually go twice in each direction, overlapping passes by 50% and slowing the machine speed down for the last pass. I work an area about 24" squared, or maybe 12"x36".

With the DA, I tend to move more like 4-6" per second. I have only used the DA with a finishing pad and M205 to knock out rotary holograms and not any serious paint correction. The arm speeds I've seen posted have been around 1-2" per second, which seems like a snail's pace to me and would take like 4-5 hours per pass around an average vehicle! I usually work an area about 18-24" squared, or a little smaller than the area I would polish with a rotary.

Any suggestions? I've been getting stellar results on the last couple details. I just did my Altima on Saturday and used these arm speeds and work area that I mentioned, sometimes fast arm speed and bigger area in some cases, and got results that easily surpass what I've seen before.

I have the DA polishing video with the black Corvette and pretty much follow that technique, though I tend to move faster and work bigger areas.

With the SMAT products, have people been finding that they've changed their arm speed or work area?

I just want to make sure I'm not wasting any time, or worse, moving too fast and sacrificing even greater results, though I'm having a hard time picturing that after 5 years owning a DA and 3 with a rotary. The depth of gloss and reflectivity I'm getting are beyond what I've ever gotten finishing with the DA. I used to have to finish with Scratch-X all the time because M80 left micro-marring on most cars I buffed. With the same process and using M205 instead, no problems.

Any full-time, pro, experienced detailers in the Minneapolis area that could watch me sometime for an hour or two and see if I'm being efficient and effective?

Thanks!

I bolded a few places to address them.

These are just PERSONAL observations and technique I use... as I do not remember the exact speeds recommended in training. I sort of adapted what works for me from the training classes. So, if I am a little off...I'm sure Mike or Mike can tell you the official recommendations

That said, with the rotary I personally start off at the speed you mention for one quick pass to spread the product over the area I am working. I catch myself trying to do larger areas, but when I do larger areas it ends up taking longer because the results suffer. Try to train yourself to stick to roughly 16x16 or 24x24 tops.

After the first pass, then I slow it down for 1-2 passes with 50% overlap at maybe 6 inches per second. For fine polishes I will lessen pressure and move a little quicker for a true final pass.

With a DA you can do an initial quick spread pass, but then you really want to slow it down. The DA lacks the speed of the rotary, so you need much more time to work the product. Try working it around 2-4 inches per second, and stick to small areas too.

Moving by hand is hard to describe. You should be using either straight (if the area warrants it), or fairly orbital patterns with some passion behind the pad, and a fair amount of speed in terms of arm movement, but in terms of "moving" to cover new area move slowly. Also, work smaller areas by hand than by any other method.

Your note about moving faster and working bigger areas = no no. It's sooo easy to want to get the project done faster and start slowly using more product, faster speed, and larger areas. but more often than not, your end results will be dismal, or at least not what they would have been with sound technique.

Your mention of the micro marring by M80 sounds to be like you were moving to quickly for the product to break down and finish out properly. This is backed up by the fact that you say you don't have that issue with M205, which uses SMAT abrasives that do not need to be worked a certain amount of time.

Hope this is a start, but again, this is just my personal take. Hopefully one of the Mikes will step in...

[dnoraker]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

I need to set a ruler down on a hood and get an accurate timing of my arm speeds. I set out a tape measure on my desk and tried to imagine how fast I was going.

I'm thinking I may actually go a little slower on the rotary than I mentioned, though I think for knocking out holograms, the speed and area I mentioned is pretty accurate.

Due to rotary swirls being so shallow, is it okay to work a little bigger area and a little faster for that finishing step than for a cutting or polishing step?

I've never had a dissatisfied customer, but almost all of the jobs I get are highly swirled cars and anything looks better. My biggest problem is just taking too long on a job. I feel like I'm throwing away time somewhere and I need to refine my process and be as efficient as possible, but achieve maximum results.

Maybe I need to stop "giving away" my swirl-removal services. I tend to try to talk people into going an extra step or two beyond a cleaner/wax and have me do at least an M205/rotary and M205/DA pass before waxing, adding two more step. The problem is, they're not willing to pay me another $25/hr or so to add those on, because then a full detail costs close to $300. I typically start at about $160-180 for a standard full detail without major correction or reconditioning, and if it takes me 2-3 hours to get around a mid- to large size vehicle, I'm pushing $300. I haven't met anyone willing to pay that. Not to mention if I wanted to do some compounding before that and really get a show car finish. Then I'm looking at maybe a $400 job. What usually happens is I talk them into paying $200 for a full detail plus some extra buffing for a mid-size car.

[Tom Weed]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

If I am not mistaken, I think Rasky is in your neck of the woods, you may try to contact him.

As for 80 and micro-marring, I was never very good at getting 80 not to marr on soft paints no matter how long i worked it.

[jmakado]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

I will say that I find myself working a little larger area with M205 than I used to with the older products for finishing. It just has more bite than the older finishing polishes so if the surface is pretty close (i.e. following M105 and yellow foam) to being good.

[Ivan Rajic]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

That is fast! I use the rotary at about 2-4" per second at most and G110 a bit slower... can't imagine doing anything faster than 5-6"/second with either

[dnoraker]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

I think Rasky is in Shakopee from what I remember, which is about 45 minutes from me (then he's not likely to be a competitor! ). I'm definitely looking for someone who is full-time, or at least does a lot of extreme makeovers with rotary and wool pads. I hope to learn a little wet-sanding down the road as well. I have the stuff for it, just not the sacrificial vehicle or panel. I'm sure I could find a rust-bucket to practice on.

Regarding some M80 vs. M205 comments, I tried everything with arm speed, pressure, product amounts and so forth and always had micro-marring on most paints using M80. With M205, speed 5, arm speed mentioned above and moderate to heavy pressure, I only had very slight issues on a black Suburban a couple weeks ago (not surprising, as I always had micro-marring on my chevy S-10), and no issues on any other car I've done. My dark red Altima seemed to have the same clarity, depth and reflectivity as I could only get with the rotary before.

The most amazing difference I've seen with the new SMATs is using M105. With the wool OR cutting pad, I don't get NEARLY the rotary swirls that I got with M84 and a cutting pad. That's with only having used it maybe 3 times! I think I'm using a little slower arm speed with M105 than M205 to make sure I'm getting better defect removal. Maybe 5-6" per second.

I'm thinking that what I also really need is to learn where I'm wasting time outside of the pad being in contact with the paint. Like pad cleaning, tool placement, product dispensing, how often to wipe off (I usually do 1/3 to 1/2 the car before I wipe product off, though)

I appreciate all of the help. I definitely want to do it right. If it takes longer, so be it. Maybe one of these I'll find someone to pay me what a good buffing is worth. I'd like to make $20-25/hour after expenses and do 1-2 cars per week on top of my other self-employment.

[dnoraker]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

I think my speed is about what Mike Pennington is using on this video (at around the 2:30 mark):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwEyZ...eature=related

this is a video series I've watched at least 5 times all the way through. It's so much easier to learn by watching than reading.

[Ivan Rajic]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

I think your main issue with M80, and I assume M205, is speed... I finish a lot of details with M80/9006 or sometimes even 8006 pad with rotary but I work at a nice slow speed so as to not cause buffer trails and holograms and also work the polish correctly... I only have issues with M80/9006 or 8006 on extremely soft and/or picky paint, like BMW jet black, Porsche blacks, few VWs, etc... other than that, M80/9006 finish down great every time...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

Recently, a new member posted a video of him using the G110 for the first time and asked us to critique his technique which we did. Below is the link to the thread, watch the video and the read our critique, see if by chance you might be making some of the mistakes he made.


Critique My Technique

[dnoraker]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

Thanks, Mike. Yes, I read that thread. The videography made it a little tricky, but I got the idea of what he was doing. I could tell that was pretty fast for trying to remove more serious swirls. I definately don't move that fast for any product, except maybe light polishing with the rotary.

If I was working that panel, I would have done the wing in two parts and the trunk itself in three if I was doing all of my cutting/heavy polishing with a DA to make sure I was getting enough cutting action. I never use the DA for that purpose, though. I only use it to remove rotary swirls/holograms.

If I was just using M205/DA/finishing pad on that trunk, I would do the wing in one step and the trunk itself in two. That's identical in size to my Altima that I did this weekend. My trunk turned out perfect, though the wing on mine still had what appeared to be rotary swirls with exactly the same technique and work area as everywhere else. It's a stock wing, but it appears to have been added after the factory because the wing AND the back window have the brake light. So, it may have been painted with a different hardness of clear. If I didn't have so many other responsibilities, I would take the time to fix it the day of. I will have to settle for sometime in the next few weeks.

I have to say again, though, that with my technique I am totally satisfied with how my car turned out with the speeds I use. My wife called it a "beacon" in the church parking lot! The only thing would be the remaining RIDS that aren't worth getting out since it's a daily driver.

Here are a few pics of my work:












You can see a few RIDS here and there, but it's pretty clean. I did an extra lap with the rotary/M105/so1o light cutting wool pad on the hood, roof and trunk. The trunk was pretty bad when I got this car. The roof and hood have a few scratches and rock chips that are too deep, though thankfully not into the base coat that I can tell.

This car is about to break 50,000 miles, so keep that in mind. It looked pretty bad when I bought it.

FYI, I took the pictures with my modest Canon camera set on the sun filter.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

Great photography work.

Actually the paint looks really nice, it's clear and virtually swirl free and for a daily driver that's plenty good.

[dnoraker]

Re: Arm speed questions with M105/M205

Thanks, Mike. That means a lot. I feel like I'm hiding my work if I don't at least get some sun shots. I still need to buy a Brinkman!

I'm guessing that whatever my speed is, it's on the fast side of getting good results. I should still slow down a hair. It won't hurt anything! Maybe I got lucky on this one.

I wish I had some before pics, both of when I bought it and before I buffed it this time. It had been sitting out under a huge maple tree that has been dropping seeds and the stickiest sap I've ever encountered. The only thing that broke it up was Goof Off! I tried just washing it, Body Solvent, Detailer line window cleaner, and nothing could touch it. Some was hardened and some was still soft. I think it took me about 3-4 hours to test products and get the sap removed.

Time to hunt down some threads on being efficient!