Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

[Tungsten]

Coming from a Zaino background (go ahead, throw rocks) I am familiar with the concept of "layering" a single product several times to achieve a certain desired result. I have used this same tactic with Meguiar's NXT and found that it is a favorable thing to do if you're concerned about uneven coverage from a single coat.

However that's not what I am talking about nor what the thread topic is asking.

What I am curious about is the concept of layering or combining several last step products (LSP) for what appears to be a variety of supposed end results based on things I have read here on MOL.

I've seen suggestions like:

• M21 + NXT + M26
• M21 + NXT
• NXT + M26
• etc and so forth

Is there really any validity to the notion that these combinations are superior than the individual products themselves? And if so, why doesn't Meguiar's produce ONE product with all of these components included?

If this is just snake oil, will someone have the courage to say it?

Thanks.

[Murr1525]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

Well.. no ones perfect...

For me, I eithe use #21 + #21, or ColorX + #21. Now topping the ColorX, which is a cleaner/wax, with a pure wax gives the recomended 2 coats, and really imprroves the look I think.

Now, for people who combine products, I am not sure how, if at all, it changes the durability of the waxes. It is really only done if it looks different and better to their eyes.

If you did 3 panels, 1. #21 + #21, 2. #21 + #26, 3. #26 + #26, one person might think all 3 look different, 1 person might think all 3 look the same, 1 person might have a favorite, etc. Perhaps even the color of the panels might change what people think.

So it is nothing big to worry about, and if you cant tell a difference, or dont want ot od it, dont do it.

[Tungsten]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

Personal opinion is so subjective, though.

People sometimes tend to see the results that they want to see if you know what I mean. The psychology of that is probably what sells so many "Zaino heads" on the idea of layering a product countless times to achieve stellar results that only they can tell the difference in. Anyone else asked would probably say that the car looked the same after 1 coat as it did after 12.

I guess what I am looking for is some sort of official word from Meguiar's or some of the pro detailers here that layering or combining different LSPs really produces tangible results that are worth the time and money spent to do so. I've already got a shelf full of detailing supplies and would rather spend my money on one or two products exclusively than purchase and use some mythical combination of products that really isn't any better.

If layering M21 + M26 provides the best of both worlds (say durability and high-gloss) then by all means that's something worth considering.

[Zet]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

People sometimes tend to see the results that they want to see if you know what I mean. The psychology of that is probably what sells so many "Zaino heads" on the idea of layering a product countless times to achieve stellar results that only they can tell the difference in. Anyone else asked would probably say that the car looked the same after 1 coat as it did after 12.

I think that those people start "seeing" things to justify the amount of work they've put into it.

I believe 90% of the final look comes from the prep work done before applying the LSP. You can then "tweak" that look a bit by the choice of LSP, this can be more or less noticeable depending on the color/paint of the car.

For me it's about choosing a LSP that has the abilities that I'm looking for, and then if I have the time I will apply a second coat, to get the most from that LSP.

But then again I like to try out different stuff, and will probably choose another LSP the next time I'm going to wax my car, even though I really like the #21 that I have on it now...

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

I'd have to agree with the others who've posted before me. I really think it's all about experimentation, personal preferences, and perhaps even just a bit of preconceived notions or even wishful thinking.

I used to use Zaino and just never saw much improvement when using multiple layers. I know guys who recommend using different waxes, or combinations of waxes, for different colored cars. I don't think any of these ideas are any more or less valid then combining different Meguiar's products to achieve a "desired" result, even if the one doing the applying is the only one who can tell the difference!

My only caveat to this would be using any of the Meguiar's sealants or waxes to "lock down" #7 Show Car Glaze. The nature of that particular polish is such that it can add tremendous gloss to certain finishes due to its high oil content, but it needs to be "locked down" to keep it from literally washing away. But that's a unique beast.

[Murr1525]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

My only caveat to this would be using any of the Meguiar's sealants or waxes to "lock down" #7 Show Car Glaze. The nature of that particular polish is such that it can add tremendous gloss to certain finishes due to its high oil content, but it needs to be "locked down" to keep it from literally washing away. But that's a unique beast.

Actualy any polish, DC#2, #5, #81, etc would also wash off....

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

Actualy any polish, DC#2, #5, #81, etc would also wash off....

Very true. I used #7 as an example since it is an extremely popular "beauty treatment" in that regard. I should have been more clear.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

I guess what I am looking for is some sort of official word from Meguiar's or some of the pro detailers here that layering or combining different LSPs really produces tangible results that are worth the time and money spent to do so.

Meguiar's recommends 1-2 coats of wax, (or a paint protectant by any other name), at any one detailing session. If you're truly car crazy and you love working on your car then go for 3 if you like. Meguiar's teaches the "Law of diminishing returns", which I'll include a link below that will expound on this topic.

As for any official statement on mixing, or layering different waxes? At this time there is no official statement for or against this practice. We know that many people like to use one of our cleaner/waxes as a first step where they're drawing on the cleaning aspects of the wax and in essence using it as a paint cleaner and then following this with either a polish/wax or a pure/wax because after they've pre-cleaned the paint they are now ready to move on to a wax that offers less in the way of cleaning and more in the way of protection and beauty ingredients.

Your questions are valid and to that effect I did write an article to help people understand what they're doing and why and how to test if layering their choice of LSP's is actually worthwhile. Note this article would apply to any product line, not just Meguiar's.

Here it is in it's entirety, while the title is "Topping NXT", you can insert the name of any wax or paint protectant and the principals still apply.


Topping NXT


Topping NXT

There is always a lot of talk about topping NXT with other products, because this is a popular topic, I thought I would offer this simple suggestion.

If you think you would like to apply a topper over NXT, before you apply your choice of a topper over the entire finish, first do a side-by-side comparison and inspect your results carefully to insure that the test area does in fact look better than NXT by itself before applying your choice of topper to the entire finish. If you apply your choice of a topper to the entire car without comparing, you will never know if it improved or diminished the results created by the NXT alone.


Here's how to do a test spot,

First - Wait until you have two thin, uniform applications of NXT Tech Wax over the entire finish. Two thin applications always look better than one application.

Second - Find a nice flat panel like the hood or deck lid so that you can look down on the finish while standing over it. Apply your choice of a topper to a square section about one foot square being careful to do so in a way as to have a very distinct section with only the topper in this section. Allow the topper to dry according to the instruction and the remove with a microfiber polishing cloth or a clean, soft 100% cotton terry cloth towel. To be fair, you should apply a second coat in this same section to insure a uniform application. Again, apply and remove according to the product's directions.

After you applied and removed your choice of a topper carefully, inspect the two areas under different lighting conditions. Different lighting conditions will allow your eyes to see the different dimensions of your finish, such as richness, gloss, shine and clearness or clarity. View the two areas from different angles, from directly overhead, and with a light source centered in the area, like the sun. You may also want to have some friends compare the two areas also, a second set of fresh eyes may see something you miss, especially after you've been working on the finish and staring at the paint for hours.

If after doing this side-by-side comparison test in one small area, your eyes will tell you whether or not you want to continue with applying the topper to the entire finish.


Here's a good read on this topic that goes into layering and to my knowledge, nobody has ever challenged anything stated in my posts in this thread.

What's the Deal with "Layering"?

If this is just snake oil, will someone have the courage to say it?

Thanks.

Also one comment, no one has ever proven that adding more and more layers of Zaino increases the thickness or film-build of that product on the surface of paint. People talk about it, but no one has ever proven it takes place.

We've seen people claim they have so many layers of Zaino on their car that you can no longer see the edge of a clear bra on their car's paint.


"Find something you like and use it often and your car will always look brand new"

[Tungsten]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to address this. One of the things you pointed us toward was the thread on "Layering" and it is quite informative. However in my mind I see applying multiple layers of one product as being a different idea than combining layers of different products, hence I started this thread.

I agree that the ultimate answer is to test the combination of products by applying a combination to one body panel, a differnt combination (or single product) to another body panel, and watching to see how they fare over time. I'll try to do that soon with my daily driver.

I'm still very interested in hearing from fellow enthusiasts who use combinations of last step products (NXT, M#21, M#26, Gold Class, etc.) on their vehicles and their reasons for and results from doing so.

Thanks again.

[Tungsten]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

By way of further explanation (if necessary)...

An example would be the several occasions here on MOL where I have seen enthusiasts state that their favorite recipe is to do something like apply a coat of M#21 after polishing with M#83, and then following it up with a coat of M#26 because it seems to give a richer lustre to their car's dark paint.

Ostensibly they are saying that they use M#21 for it's protective purposes since it is a pure polymer and then apply M#26 as a RLSP* ( really last step product ) because the carnuba content gives the paint warmth and depth.

My question would then be, if the combination of those two LSPs provides such spectacular results, why doesn't Meguiar's produce a product that is a chemical combination of the two?

Or is the sequence of layering key?

Just something to chew on I guess.

[Tom Weed]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

Tungsten,
I'll throw in my 2 cents....

When I do details for customers or my own cars, time permitting, I experiment with LSP's. If I polish a out a car then follow that up with an LSP such as 20, 21, or NXT. All these products look great on their own in my opinion, but sometimes I get the urge to top that with 26 or on occasion 16. I will admit I have never done a side by side comparison with 26 topping say NXT, verses just the NXT alone, but in my eyes, while NXT adds what I would say is a deep look on a dark car, 26 gives it a slicker or more reflective look. It doesn't hurt that I have a gallon I need to use up also....

Tom

[Tungsten]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

Thanks, Tom. I may have to buy a bottle of #26 and give it a shot soon. It never hurts to have another stick in your bag when prepping the car for a show or something.

[Tom Weed]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

I forgot to add one more thing... From what I understand, 26 is a pure LSP that has no cleaning ability, so it's prefect to top say 20, 21, or NXT where your not removing their ability to protect. The main thing is, what looks good in your eyes...

[Simply Perfect]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

I'm not sure if this is good or bad but last month I had a little more than 1/2 a M9912 bottle of #26 left so I mixed #20 in to fill it up. I used it as an LSP after going over my work truck with #66. It Looked good and the durability has been great.

[jmakado]

Re: Combining last step products? Explain this concept to me.

My question would then be, if the combination of those two LSPs provides such spectacular results, why doesn't Meguiar's produce a product that is a chemical combination of the two?

They do. Most of the LSP's Meguiar's makes are a combo of carnuba and synthetic ingredients. They ARE combining "waxes" to get a desired look and feel and durability and etc, etc, etc. I personally like going with 2 coats of NXT and calling it good. I have tried topping NXT with GC and honestly, I can't tell a difference. I think that often times people see what they want, or expect, to see.