"detailing guru" on m5 board

[Larry A]

This guy uses a system that works for him. As far as the products he uses whats wrong with them .? The 3m polishing products he uses are top notch. At our shop paint jobs start at $10,000, and we use 3m products for final polishing. P21s wax is a well known wax and a lot of people like it very much. Foam pads on a rotary will not burn if you have the knowlidge to use them, and they are much faster in removing swirls and scratches. The big problem in burning the paint is the edges. You can always tape them to avoid this. When I started using a rotary all we had was wool pads and orange compound, now you had to worry about burning.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Zet
How about these quotes, from statements that he made:

• 3M and P21s combo is the BEST...I will put it against ANYTHING!
• I have over $1,000 in waxs/finishing products that have been tried over the past year....yea Zaino, Zymol, Meguiars, the laser BS one, eagle1...ect.......I tell you now.....THIS IS THE COMBO YOU NEED TO USE!
• Your problem is that you used a "random orbital" buffer...like I SAID!!! that is only good for putting on wax! That Porter Cable **** is for the man of the home to save time putting on wax.
• I told you....I HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING!!!
• 10 years ago my best friends dad owns a body shop, thats how I know so much...
• Wax your car, use water only, and try it...you car is clean because your just cleaning your top wax coat...the longer you keep it on there, the easier it is to clean. Wax your car every 30-45 days anyway, don't let **** get past your wax ever and you won't need SWIRL REMOVER EVER!
• (In a later post). You will get swirls over time of washing and you can't prevent it.
• auto soap was never around until 5 years ago, it's all about making money.
• Everyone sells, mitts, towels, pre wax coats, wax, microfiber, and so on...when 5 years ago, they just sold wax. I still use old diapers or dedicated 100% cotton towels to take off my wax and don't get swirl marks. (...) Microfiber doesn't work 1/2 as well and takes off wax as it is a towel made to "pick up".
• Because the puffing pads are Foam and not wool, you can't burn the paint.
• Anyone can do this with a high speed buffer and NOT WORRY!
• If you don't have body shop experiance...please keep your weekend warrior opinions to yourself...

Is it possible to have more of a know-it-all attitude than that?

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, that doesn't make their opinion right. I can tell you this, I would never make statements like these on a public forum or in a private setting.

3M makes very good products and while I know a lot of people like P21S, I don't and I wouldn't use on a show car if I have any Meguiar's wax available to me. It's very similar to our M16 Professional Paste Wax in results, which is great gloss, but it doesn't increase the richness in color compared to waxes like NXT Tech Wax, M26, Gold Class, etc., That is, it doesn't make black paint as black as it can be. It doesn't make red paint as red as it can be, etc., etc., etc.,

As far as telling anyone that can use a rotary buffer I would strongly disagree with this. What a lot of people don't understand until they've actually done it, is that if you have a car in which the finish is bad enough that it needs to be buffed out with a rotary buffer, then at least for me this means doing a 2-3 multi-step rotary buffer process and most of my show car work is a 3-step rotary buffer process followed by a 3-step PC process before you make your final wipe and stand back and say "It is finished"

For example,
Nissan Titan King Cab Custom Truck - Extreme Makeover

Taking this,
Before












And turning it into this is more work than most people that have never used a rotary buffer can understand, comprehend or duplicate especially their first time.

Going around a car with a rotary buffer is a great workout for your arms, shoulders, back and legs, in-fact your entire body. You'll also want plenty of liquids on hand to keep your body hydrated.


After


































Recently we had a strong, young man come to one of of our Wednesday night classes and he told us he wanted to learn how to use the rotary buffer to buff out his black Mercedes-Benz.

We showed him the basics and turned him loose on his hood, (Horizontal surfaces are generally speaking easier to buff out than vertical panels as unless you have a floor lift to raise the car up, you'll be sitting on your bottom on the floor).

Before he started, I explained how much work he was looking at as he was starting out with a compound and a cutting pad and he assured me he was excited, eager and ready to go!

After buffing out about a quarter of the hood he stopped and said he would like to have the car repainted instead. He found out first hand just how much work it is to use a rotary buffer to do a complete buff-out and decided for himself at least, it was too much work and involved too much risk of making a mistake.


There are other good products on the market and the key is to find a system that works for you, but to post that your system is the best of all, or the best system for everyone is only an opinion and an opinion that many people will take issue with. This is why I would never post something like this gentleman has on a public forum, or in private setting, it wouldn't be the right thing to do.

As for the other statements and tips listed in his write-up, I don't have time to read them and comment on them one by one, there are some however that again I strongly disagree with and wouldn't practice on my car or a customer's car.

Thanks everyone for keeping this thread a friendly discussion.

[the other pc]

Originally posted by Larry A
This guy uses a system that works for him. ...

Fair enough, but he's also bashing other people's products and techniques.

Originally posted by Larry A
... As far as the products he uses whats wrong with them .? ...

Nothing wrong with the products. I have concerns about his techniques and find his attitude disturbing.

Originally posted by Larry A
...Foam pads on a rotary will not burn if you have the knowlidge to use them, ...

True. But he said "can't burn the paint" and "There is NO RISK" not "won't if you know what you're doing." And he's recommending this to anybody with zero rotary experience.



What I find most entertaining are his little "facts" like "auto soap was never around until 5 years ago." Gee, I guess the auto shampoo I was buying back in the seventies must have been delivered in Doc Brown's DeLorean.



PC.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by the other pc

What I find most entertaining are his little "facts" like "auto soap was never around until 5 years ago."

Gee, I guess the auto shampoo I was buying back in the seventies must have been delivered in Doc Brown's DeLorean.




PC.

Thanks Paul,

I love a healthy laugh in the morning!

[TKDDAD]

Not to go to far off thread, but it's becoming a battle of opinions anyway so not sure it needs to go much further....I do have a question for you Mike regarding something you said about making black blacker and red redder etc....I have to do a gold colored Acura and have never worked on that color before with either NXT or #16 or #21....in your opinion and from your experience, is there one that you would grab from your shelf if you were waxing this color car ??...thanks in advance for any guidance...

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by TKDDAD
Not to go to far off thread, but it's becoming a battle of opinions anyway so not sure it needs to go much further....I do have a question for you Mike regarding something you said about making black blacker and red redder etc....I have to do a gold colored Acura and have never worked on that color before with either NXT or #16 or #21....in your opinion and from your experience, is there one that you would grab from your shelf if you were waxing this color car ??...thanks in advance for any guidance...

When working on a clear coated finish, the way to make black blacker and red redder is to make the clear coat as clear as you can so the color shows through the clear coat as best as possible.

Waxes that make clear coats clear do this and quite frankly, all Meguiar's waxes do this, even our $5.00 cleaner/wax.

Making paint look it's best is done in the prep work, claying and paint cleaning and paint polishing, after that your choice of wax will take these results to a higher level and lock them in. As far as what wax to use goes, I would use NXT, M21, M26, or M20. I like the other waxes make and do use products like M66, ColorX, M06 A12 etc, but for show car work I tend to stay with NXT or M21 FWIW

Here's this too...

Which LSP is Best for Light Colors

[Zet]

Originally posted by Larry A
This guy uses a system that works for him. As far as the products he uses whats wrong with them .? The 3m polishing products he uses are top notch. At our shop paint jobs start at $10,000, and we use 3m products for final polishing. P21s wax is a well known wax and a lot of people like it very much. Foam pads on a rotary will not burn if you have the knowlidge to use them, and they are much faster in removing swirls and scratches. The big problem in burning the paint is the edges. You can always tape them to avoid this. When I started using a rotary all we had was wool pads and orange compound, now you had to worry about burning.

Nothing wrong with the products, it's all in his attitude. Even though you are also defending the products, the tone in your post is completely different. As written in the original post on Autopia, I guess it comes down to if this guy "irks" you or not...

Btw, he also states that the 3M swirl remover contains no abrasives. And in a video he posted, his buddy buffs a bit on a bmw with 3M Rubbing compund, and then states that this is also completely non-abrasive! Apparently the products cuts by heat or somethin' But yet they "can't burn the paint"...

[sneek]

i saw the real car that they used for a lot of the filming and it had horrific swirls!!

[TKDDAD]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
When working on a clear coated finish, the way to make black blacker and red redder is to make the clear coat as clear as you can so the color shows through the clear coat as best as possible.

Waxes that make clear coats clear do this and quite frankly, all Meguiar's waxes do this, even our $5.00 cleaner/wax.

Making paint look it's best is done in the prep work, claying and paint cleaning and paint polishing, after that your choice of wax will take these results to a higher level and lock them in. As far as what wax to use goes, I would use NXT, M21, M26, or M20. I like the other waxes make and do use products like M66, ColorX, M06 A12 etc, but for show car work I tend to stay with NXT or M21 FWIW

Here's this too...

Which LSP is Best for Light Colors

Thanks Mike ....I'm going with #21 on it....thanks for the quick response !!

[Green Ninja]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips

Mike, can I get results like this without using a buffer? I put 3 layers of Nxt tech wax (12 hours or more between layers) and after quick detailer on my bike and it still doesn't have the mirror look this pick-up has. Maybe it's because it is a light green color or maybe because the fairings are plastic. Or should I be using other products from Meguiars range? Maybe my bike is as good as it'll get with factory paintjob, I don't know

[ebpcivicsi]

That pic above demonstartes what happens when a great paint job is buffed out correctly with the use of the rotary polisher (and other subsequent steps). From the look of it, the paint has very little orange peel, but it was riddled with swirls. Once Mike took care of the swirls, the lack of orange peel combined with the steps Mike took polishing creates that mirror finish that you see.

Honestly, unless you got a "ringer" of a paint job from the factory, it's going to be hard to produce that level of reflection from factory paint. The OP will always interfere with the reflection.

[rascal]

There is actually some detail fanatics close to me? Sweet! Memphis is that far away from Greenville, MS.

[ebpcivicsi]

There are about five of us in the Memphis area.

[onnfire]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cohenfive
can you get swirl marks out by hand using anything? maybe not as amazing as shown in the pix here, but reasonably well done? i may be buying a used car for my daughter (not m5!!) that has some swirl marks that i'd like to do something with....doesn't have to be perfect and i don't have a buffer except my two arms..

No....not unless you can generate heat and wipe the same spot about 300 times....

If you didn't want to get a 200 dollar package....pay a body shop to buff it for you..or the car dealer should do it for you. No way around it....do it right...once it is done....you will love it. You could get 600-1000 dollars more on trade in if your car is in this condition, so you should buy one before the trade in....it will pay for everything and put money in the bank for gas. Most, "swirl removers" by hand realy fill in the swirls..and hide them...marketing!

Ok this guy has never even heard of scratch x or trying to use the least aggresive method to do the job. Every post makes him sound more stupid.

[Jeepster04]

The little review someone posted on there. It said GC wax is better than the #26 wax? Should I even pay attention to that, or is it right?

Here is one of the "test":

http://www.deckowski.com/wax%20off/greatwaxoffintro.htm

The actual post is the 6th one up from the bottom.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=75987