Swirl 101 / confused what to use when

[rting]

I want to remove the swirl marks on my black car ... the swirl marks are visible only around the reflections of a large bright light source (e.g. the sun). It is not visible from most other "viewing angles."

I have read that Meguiar's Deep Crystal Polish (Model A-2116) is the solution.

I have also read that No. 7 and No. 9 are good .....

AND also read that the Meguiar's 3 step system is ideal:
1. Meguiar's® Step 1 Deep Crystal Cleaner.
2. Meguiar's® Step 2 Polish.
3. Meguiar's® Step 3 Wax.

I intend to use a random orbital buffer (Simoniz) and take out the swirl and try to get back that showroom wet glossy shine with no swirl on the black Porsche. The car have only 2,700 miles on it.

Which ones should I try first!? I am confused?

TIA

Note: I currently have Meguiar's Body Scrub.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Swirl 101 / confused what to use when

Originally posted by rting
I want to remove the swirl marks on my black car ... the swirl marks are visible only around the reflections of a large bright light source (e.g. the sun). It is not visible from most other "viewing angles."

I have read that Meguiar's Deep Crystal Polish (Model A-2116) is the solution.

I have also read that No. 7 and No. 9 are good .....

AND also read that the Meguiar's 3 step system is ideal:
1. Meguiar's® Step 1 Deep Crystal Cleaner.
2. Meguiar's® Step 2 Polish.
3. Meguiar's® Step 3 Wax.

I intend to use a random orbital buffer (Simoniz) and take out the swirl and try to get back that showroom wet glossy shine with no swirl on the black Porsche. The car have only 2,700 miles on it.

Which ones should I try first!? I am confused?

TIA

Note: I currently have Meguiar's Body Scrub.

Hi rting,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online!

After using the Body Scrub, you could go with the Meguiar's Step 2 Polish and then wax, or you try some #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 and then go to wax.

The #9 Swirls Remover 2.0 will provide more swirl removing action than the Deep Crystal Polish so that would be my recommendation.

Which wax are you using after you clean and polish? Is NXT available in your area of Canada yet?

Mike

[rting]

Mike,

ok, between this post and my first post, I tried the Body Scrub on my Volvo 850's trunk - and then use Turtle Wax (liquid). The swirls are still there when viewed with a reflection of a light source. I did not went to the store so I did not have a polish - before waxing.

The Volvo did not receive any waxing/detailing for a long time. When I look at the pad after the application of Body Scrub, it is dark gray - instead of brown color of the body scrub! So there appears to be a lot of build up on the Volvo over time. So in terms of removing dirt, etc, the Body Scrub did the job.

However, I wonder if the Body Scrub's scrubbing is require for the Porsche as the Porsche's affected area (hood) have gone through once Turtle Wax swirl remover and wax already. It is also quite new and hardly any build up of dirt.

Ok, general questions:
1. Am I correct to assume that there are basically 3 steps. Removal of swirls, dirt build up, etc.; then polish; and then waxing?
2. Considering my Porsche is fairly new, I can in theory remove most minor swirl marks - those swirl marks that are ONLY visible around the reflections of a light source - given time and effort right?


Specific questions:
1. There seems to be two products - Diamond Crystal Polish and Diamond Crystal Clearner? Together with the Body Scrub, they are the first step right and it is matter of choosing the right one? Can you please explain the differences of these three products?
2. I could have done a better job with the Volvo's trunk if I had polish it after scrubbing and before waxing, right?
3. There are swirls visible at any angle and most lighting conditions. These are swirls that cannot be removed effectively unless a new clearcoat is applied?

Thanks,

[hirosh]

rting,

the deep crystal system can give good results. if you want to and you can find them, you can also try some of the professional line of products. there should be a post here or on www.autopia.org about going from meguiar's consumer line to their professional line. maybe someone else can post it.

but does your swirl marks look like this:



those are from my mom's altima's hood, and i used meg's #80 speed glaze to get this result:



i did this by hand, so that is just a small portion of the hood that is swirl free. it's too hard doing it by hand, well, unless your scottwax. but i did try his technique of getting a terry cloth towel, folding it into eighths, putting a line of #80 across the towel, spread the product over the surface (about the width of the folded towel by 3 or four inches) and using both hands, rub that sucker hard! i used about five strokes (up and down) or until the product pretty much disappeared. i used a microfiber towel to wipe the rest off.

you don't have to use #80, you could try other products like #9 Swirl Remover or Medallion Premium Paint Cleaner. good luck! and post pictures of your results!

[rting]

Hi hirosh,

My black Porsche actually have much less swirl but this is EXACTLY the problem I have. Great pics are worth a thousand words!

You mentioned:
1. Deep Crystal system from meg's (you mean this - http://www.meguiars.com/store_meguia...l.cfm?sku=a-21)?
2. #80 speed glaze from meg's (you mean this - http://www.meguiars.com/store_meguia...l.cfm?sku=M-80)?

Which one do you think I should try first?

As always, TIA.

[hirosh]

hi rting,

yes, pictures are so much more helpful especially when you're trying to explain it to other people (i've learned that from reading autopia's board)

to answer your questions:
1. meg's deep crystal system is their 3-step system from their "consumer" line. on the meguiar's site, it's under "the meguiar's store"
step 1 (paint care - cleaning & scratch removal) - deep crystal paint cleaner.
step 2 (paint care - polishing for higher gloss) - deep crystal polish.
step 3 (paint care - car wax & protective coating) - deep crystal caranuba wax.

speed glaze #80 is NOT part of the deep crystal system. it comes under meg's "mirror glaze" line, and is in "the professional store" under "polishes". people have found the professional stuff to be better for different reasons, eg: easier to apply, more efficient, nicer looking, etc etc

when removing swirls, you always want to try the least harsh/aggressive product. so between the deep crystal paint cleaner and #80, i believe the deep crystal paint cleaner is the less harsh product. the body scrub might be similar to the deep crystal paint cleaner. but it might not be enough to remove the swirls. #9 swirl remover might be the next step up, i'm not entirely sure. it mght take some experimenting with different products.

you might want to get other opinions on this. better yet, try taking a picture of your swirls and post another thread (or here) showing the swirls and asking what other people think. you could also do a search here or on autopia.org about removing swirls. if you do that (post pics of the swirls and/or searching for removing swirls) you might be able to get a better idea of what to use because i only have a little experiment in removing swirls. plus like i said above, it is much easier for people to see what kind of swirls you have and to recommend what you should try since some products might be too aggressive, like #80.

there is so much to learn about making your car clean! i would suggest going to http://www.bettercarcare.com/ and reading all you can there. also here and autopia has good readings, although i've learned sometimes it takes a while to find your answers.

btw, try doing a search here for nxt on black. mike has done some super nice jobs!
good luck!

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

Just to add to what has already been said;

Firstly, what type of pads are you using with the Simoniz buffer? I would assume it is a Terry Cloth bonnet. If so, part of your swirling issue will be the buffer and bonnets. The best is to obtain a Porter Cable (PC) DA Polisher, backing plate and a set of Meguiar's pads. These are special pads that are designed for the polishing and finishing steps.

Secondly, if the swirls are on black, then I would also suggest trying #82 Swirl Free Polish first. Work this product in thoroughly but remove while still damp. If this does not do it, you can either try the #80 Speed Glaze or even more aggressive, #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish (DACP). With the #83, you need to work the product until only a slight dust/residue remains. This will take a fair amount of time with a PC, or even longer with the orbital. Then after the #83 or #80, you should step down through the #82 to remove any micro marring remaining from the #83 step. This step is important when dealing with black paint, IMHO.

Finally, I would use Meguiar's #81 Hand Polish to add more depth to the paint. Then top with either NXT Tech Wax or #20 Polymer Sealant topped (after waiting over night to let the #20 set up properly) with #26 Hi-Tech Yellow Wax.

With a little patience, you will remove most of the swirls. Some may be so deep that swirl removal may require someone skilled in using a rotary buffer.

Another site you may want to check out is:

https://www.showcargarage.com

This is Mike Phillips' own website.

Tim

[rting]

Tim,

You know what, I have not bought any power buffer yet and the swirls are from the previous owner ...

What does polishing and glazing generally mean/do?

I understand that you have to remove the grim / dirt first (e.g. with Meg's Body Scrub) but this is a new car - almost - so I almost went for the Speed Glaze #80.

Also, I went through the Car RX feature on Meguiar's web site and it recommended the first step is Scratch X. So I suppose:
First Scratch X
Second Swirl Free Polish #82 or Speed Glaze #80.

Will also look for the Meguiar pads with the Simoniz buffer.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by rting
Tim,

You know what, I have not bought any power buffer yet and the swirls are from the previous owner ...

What does polishing and glazing generally mean/do?

Because there is no Legal Controlling Authority over words and terms used in the Auto Appearance Industry, definitions and meanings will vary greatly among different car wax companies. That said, in Meguiar's terminology, (and we've been doing this longer than a majority of the players for what it's worth, 100+ years).

From

7. What's the difference between polish and wax? - (Meguiar's 5-Step Paint Care Cycle)

Meguiar's offers two types of polishes, Cleaner Polishes and Pure Polishes. Cleaner Polishes are for removing very light or fine defects while restoring a crystal clear, smooth high gloss surface. Pure polishes are for finishes already in excellent condition and are for the purpose or creating brilliant high gloss with deep dark reflections.

If you look in Webster's Dictionary under the word polish, one of the definitions they include reads like this:

"A preparation that is used to produce gloss, and often color for the protection and decoration of a surface."

This definition best describes Meguiar's Pure Polishes. Meguiar's pure polishes are designed to create brilliant high gloss while preparing the surface for the application of a protective coating.

Meguiar's pure polishes accomplish this without the use of abrasives.

Another definition found in Webster's Dictionary for polish is,

"To make smooth and glossy by friction."

This definition best describes Meguiar's Cleaner/Polishes. Meguiar's cleaner polishes are formulated to very gently abrade the surface with Meguiar's Diminishing AbrasiveTM and Buffered AbrasiveTM technology to remove the finest defects and create a perfectly smooth, high gloss finish.

Depending on what type of paint you're working on, traditional paints like lacquers and enamels, or catalyzed clear coats, Meguiar's has the products specifically designed to work on both types of paints, not to mention many other surfaces such as plastics and polyester resins (Fiberglas Gel-coats).


Meguiar's Trade Secret Polishing Oils

The trade secret oils Meguiar's uses in both types of polishes are unique to the industry and to this day have never been surpassed for creating deep, dark reflections and brilliant high gloss by any of our competitors in over 100 years.

The oils Meguiar's uses are also important in maintaining the original condition of the paint by filling in the naturally occurring microscopic pores and surface imperfections thus preventing detrimental substances and elements as simple as water, or worse, acid-rain, from entering into these pores and microscopic surface imperfections thus causing oxidation and chemical etching. These oils act to replace the original resins as they wear away through natural processes.

When paint is new, it is the most impermeable it will ever be, this means it is a very smooth non-porous, continuous film. With age, exposure to the environment and micro-scratching caused by day-in, day-out wear and tear, your paint develops micro-fissures in the surface along with other defects. These micro-fissures and other defects act to make the continuous film or coating of paint more porous. As this happens, your car's finish becomes more vulnerable to corrosive elements that will attack and degrade your finish.


Remember, waxes, synthetic or otherwise, are meant to be Sacrificial Barriers with the intended purpose sealing the surface, while blocking those things that would attack your paint, from coming into direct contact with the paint. Waxes protect your finish by sacrificing themselves so that your paint doesn't have to.

An analogy is your skin. In the same way you can clean, polish and protect your skin, you can clean, polish and protect your car's finish. Soap can be used to clean your skin and remove dirt from the pores. Skin lotions can be used to moisturize your skin, conditioning it and making it more clear and beautiful. Protection products like lotions used to protect hands from exposure to chemicals and UV protectants can be applied to help protect your skin from the things that would attack your skin if these harmful things could come into direct contact with your skin.

While human skin and automotive paint are very different, the analogy is very similar. With Meguiar's, you can:


* Wash your car's finish to remove unwanted and accumulated dirt contaminants

* Clean your paint with our special paint cleaners and cleaner/polishes

* Polish your paint with our pure polishes to create unequaled beauty

* Protect your paint with our advanced paint protection products

* Maintain your car's finish using our fast and easy to use maintenance products


The unique thing about Meguiar's highly specialized trade secret oils is their ability to restore and maintain the Optical Clarity of both single stage and clear coat paints in a way that polymers alone cannot match, the results of which are demonstrated in side-by-side comparison demonstrate.

I understand that you have to remove the grim / dirt first (e.g. with Meg's Body Scrub) but this is a new car - almost - so I almost went for the Speed Glaze #80.

Technically, you remove the above surface contaminants first, (Claying), and after that, you remove the below surface defects, Cleaning. As far as getting paint clean, here's an article I wrote over on BetterCarCare.com on cleaning paint and why it's important,

A Lesson From White Paint

Also, I went through the Car RX feature on Meguiar's web site and it recommended the first step is Scratch X. So I suppose:

First Scratch X
Second Swirl Free Polish #82 or Speed Glaze #80.

Or after ScratchX you could use #9 Swirl Remover 2.0, it may be a little easier to find at your local auto parts stores, for that matter, you could also use Deep Crystal Polish.

Will also look for the Meguiar pads with the Simonize buffer.

The Meguiar’s foam pads will not attach to the Simonize buffer without some type of interface adaptor. I think, SM Arnold makes this interface adaptor, but I'm not sure.

Mike

[rting]

Mike,

Just got Scratch X ... but the hood is quite warm so gotta wait a little longer until it cools. Will try Scratch X according to the instructions on the back.

Still have not bought orbiter/random buffer.


So the glazing or polishing does not really remove the swirls by FILLING into the swirls?

My thought process is that products like Scratch X remove swirls by "taking out" what is sticking out but glazing can actually mean "filling in".

Ultimately, I am still reading the above post ...

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by rting
Mike,

Just got Scratch X ... but the hood is quite warm so got to wait a little longer until it cools. Will try Scratch X according to the instructions on the back.

Tip: Use ScratchX on a cool, clean surface. If your hood is warm then please do let it cool down before working on it. ScratchX can become difficult to use when exposed to heat.

So the glazing or polishing does not really remove the swirls by FILLING into the swirls?

As posted above, Meguiar’s makes two kinds of polishes, pure polishes and cleaner/polishes.

Pure polishes for creating beauty, they also help to fill in and hide fine scratches.

Cleaner/polishes contain a diminishing abrasive and because of this, they can gently abrade the paint in an effort to level the surface and thus remove the defect.

My thought process is that products like Scratch X remove swirls by "taking out" what is sticking out but glazing can actually mean "filling in".

Product like ScratchX remove a small amount of paint, thus leveling the area surrounding the scratch or defect with the lowest depth of the scratch in an effort to level or flatten out the surface. This is how you remove a defect.

Note in the diagram below, you will see the horizontal view of paint with scratches in it. You can see by this diagram that in order to make the scratches disappear, you need to level the finish by abrading the surface of the paint.



Of course, the far right scratch is too deep to remove because to do so would expose the base coat.

When it comes to gently abrading paint, because modern paints are generally much harder than traditional lacquer and enamel single stage paints, it is difficult to completely remove scratches by hand, and thus the increase in popularity of machines like the Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher.

Ultimately, I am still reading the above post ...

There's lots of good information in the FAQ

Mike

[Mark McGuire]

Hey rting

As the owner of two very white vehichles I can atest to what Mike says in his article "A lesson from white paint".



This is my truck that I spent two days on with an orbital polisher. The order was:

Wash
Clay
Wash
DC #1 Paint Cleaner
DC #2 Polish x2
Gold Class Wax

These are the results I got from 20 hrs of work!



Very nice but well earned!
This is a picture of my wife's daily driver, Chevy Astro, I detailed it after mine. While I was claying it I noticed what Mike was talking about when he said you had to clean the paint and it shows up real good on white paint when the part next to it is clean.



Here you can see the diference in clean and deep in the paint, dirty. Here is another.



So you see it is very important to get the paint as clean as you can before you do anything else. I read Mikes article twice just to make sure I didn't miss anything.

BTW Mike very interesting and informative. Really opened my eyes to paint care.
Thanks

(forgot to hit the IMG key for pictures I hope you don't mind) still learning. (I fixed it for you -Mike)

[rting]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Product like ScratchX remove a small amount of paint, thus leveling the area surrounding the scratch or defect with the lowest depth of the scratch in an effort to level or flatten out the surface. This is how you remove a defect.

Note in the diagram below, you will see the horizontal view of paint with scratches in it. You can see by this diagram that in order to make the scratches disappear, you need to level the finish by abrading the surface of the paint.

Mike,

So, glazing does not really "fill" the scratches / swirls? The pictures / results that hirosh shown above was not because of #80 Speed Glaze? Or rather a combination of #80 Speed Glaze and products like Scratch X, Deep Crystal System Step 1, etc.?

Now that I have Scratch X (have not use it yet) and I do not have as much swirl as hirosh's first picture, I am looking for a polish/glaze.

Which one is a better glaze / pure polish for my situation (of less swirl than hirosh):
1. Deep Crystal System Step 2
2. #9 Swirl Remover (M-0916)
3. #7 Show Car Glaze (M-0716) or #5 New Car Glaze (M-0516)

[Tim Lingor]

Hi Roger,

Getting the best results means using the right product for the right job. While #80 Speed Glaze may really help in the elimination of the swirls by removing them (actually, you are leveling the paint around them), many other products also have a role in the final result.

For example, my suggestion for #83 DACP was for removing the majority of deeper swirls. To remove the micro-marring, (a very light haze from the polishing process) will require you to step down to a less aggressive product like #80 or #82.

The differences between polish and glaze will be dependant on the company's definition. As Mike said, Meguiar's carries both Pure Polishes (no cleaning power but used for filling slight marring) such as #3, #5, #7, and #81. As well, Meguiar's carries Cleaner/Polishes (products that contain both cleaners but also a healthly dose of TS Oils).

Main goal is to get the finish to its maximun potential possible based on products, skill and equipment used. As I said, you should really look into buying a PC (7424 or the 7336). It will help tremendously!!

Tim

[rting]

Originally posted by 2hotford
Hi Roger,

Getting the best results means using the right product for the right job. While #80 Speed Glaze may really help in the elimination of the swirls by removing them (actually, you are leveling the paint around them), many other products also have a role in the final result.

For example, my suggestion for #83 DACP was for removing the majority of deeper swirls. To remove the micro-marring, (a very light haze from the polishing process) will require you to step down to a less aggressive product like #80 or #82.

The differences between polish and glaze will be dependant on the company's definition. As Mike said, Meguiar's carries both Pure Polishes (no cleaning power but used for filling slight marring) such as #3, #5, #7, and #81. As well, Meguiar's carries Cleaner/Polishes (products that contain both cleaners but also a healthly dose of TS Oils).

Main goal is to get the finish to its maximun potential possible based on products, skill and equipment used. As I said, you should really look into buying a PC (7424 or the 7336). It will help tremendously!!

Tim

Tim,

Which of the 3 glaze/polish do you think I should try first as I do not have as much swirl as shown in Hirosh's first picture above? TIA.