Pinnacle Souverän tips

[DaveBM]

Hi,

I know it’s not a Meg’s product but a lot of you on here seriously know your stuff so im sure somebody can help.

Basically do you leave the Pinnacle wax on for a set time or doesn’t it matter? (Is it wipe on wipe off).

Can I layer the wax? If so does it need time to 'cure' in between applications??

Or do you have any other top tips for this product.

Many thanks

Dave

[Accumulator]

Don't let it dry, use a wipe-on-pause-wipe-off approach, one panel at a time. You can try letting it dry but it'll be a *bear* to buff off (and- much to my surprise- it doesn't make it more durable, at least not enough for me to notice).

If you want to layer it without waiting until the next wash (or at least until the next day), you oughta spit-shine it with the Pinnacle Crystal Mist QD (chill the CM in a 'fridge first). The spit-shining seems to keep the subsequent applications from just dissolving the preivously applied ones. Same principle as spit-shining shoes. Pretty labor-intensive though

FWIW, Souveran isn't all that durable for me, and washing it with the Pinnacle Bodywork Shampoo is *really* hard on it. I'd wash it with Meguiar's #62 or even #00 instead.

Oh, almost forgot- Souveran is *very* trim-friendly. I've been using it on the XJS's exterior rubber trim for nearly 20 years, and putting wax on that kind of material is usually a no-no. It sure hasn't stained any black trim that *I've* tried it on, and I've been using it for a long time on many different vehicles.

[DaveBM]

thank you

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Accumulator

Don't let it dry, use a wipe-on-pause-wipe-off approach, one panel at a time.

I just want to preface what I've posted below with this, this is not to state that Accumulator's advice is wrong, I just want to drill down a little deeper and point out a few things for everyone to think about and then make up their own minds what makes the best sense to them.





Just to comment, anytime I see a manufacturer or a individual recommend,

Wipe-on, wipe-off

A couple of Red Flags goes up.

As much as some of the self-proclaimed gurus like to promote this technique as though it's some kind of insider secret method, if anyone takes just a moment to think about it, it's pretty easy to understand that if you wipe a product on, and then wipe the product off immediately, you're not leaving anything of any real substance behind.

The other thing I think about is that there is something wrong with the product at the core of the formula. Think about it... wipe it on, then quickly wipe it off?

Its not, what's right about this scenario, it's what's wrong with this picture?

Usually it's because as you've stated the product is very difficult to remove and the more dry it becomes the more difficult it is to remove. Sometimes as in the case of our M16 the trick, or correct procedure is to apply a thin coat. If the product is difficult to remove if left on to long even using a thin coat, then at least to myself, this tells me there is something inherently wrong with the product.

Nope, don't buy into the wipe-on, wipe-off technique at all when it comes to a paint protection product.

Also tells me that the person teaching or endorsing the technique doesn't understand what they're talking about even if they have set themselves up to be some kind of guru.

Kind of reminds me of what I wrote here,

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/sho...0&pagenumber=2

• Originally posted by ng-rsx
  I've been reading on forums on how to get rid of swirls, listening to other people's opinions etc...
  

  Interesting...
  
  This is what discussion forums are evolving into...
  
  Whose opinions are right...
  
  There are plenty of opinions out there, (that's for sure), and plenty of keyboard commandos and self-appointed gurus waxing-on at length on this or that and one thing or another...
  
  Luckily time has a way of sorting everything out...
  
  
  If you want to remove swirls or scratches by hand out of your car's clear coat finish then read the links supplied above and this thread I've included below and you will have a pretty good handle on what to do...
  
  What it Means to Remove a Scratch
  
  
  
  Point being is everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't make them right.

Note this isn't meant to say that what Accumulator suggested, that is to wipe the product on and then wipe the product off doesn't work, it does, the question is...

Are you doing anything?

Just because a technique makes a product easy to perform doesn't mean a real benefit is being realized. If you have swirls in your cars paint, I could tell you to quickly wipe M83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish and then immediately wipe it off. This will be easy to do but it won't remove the swirls. In the same way, if you apply a protection product, i.e. a car wax, a sealant, a polish as some companies call their paint protection products), and then immediately remove it...

Did you leave anything behind? Or did you leave anything worth the effort behind if the goal was actually to leave something on the surface behind to protect it.

Does that make sense?

In the Mold Release industry, it is vital that a mold release wax be left on the surface until it is dry so that when the excess is wiped off, wax is left behind otherwise, the part will stick to the mold thus ruining both the part and the mold.

While a waxing a mold has nothing to do with your car... the philosophy still applies...

Or how about this if you want to drill down deeper...

Are you doing less than you could by allowing the product to dry and then removing it


Back to the question...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My experience with all Pinnacle waxes is different than Accumulator's experience. I find that if you apply a thin coat to a properly prepared finish, they all wipe off easy after you let them dry.

Using a premium quality wiping cloth helps, this would include either a microfiber polishing cloth or a 100% cotton wiping cloth as long as it has a nap. Wiping cloths with a flat sheen, such as a T-shirt, or a Diaper are not as effective at removing continuous layers of films off of paint nor are they as gentle.

I hope this helps...

[SpoiledMan]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
My experience with all Pinnacle waxes is different than Accumulator's experience. I find that if you apply a thin coat to a properly prepared finish, they all wipe off easy after you let them dry.

This is my experience as well.

[Accumulator]

Mike- I knew as I posted that "Don't let it dry, use a wipe-on-pause-wipe-off approach.." bit (note the operative word "pause" ) that you'd chime in. I agree with the "what's left behind if you w-o-w-o?" but with that particular product said method really has worked OK for me for many years. Probably does explain some of the the less-than-stellar durability I get from it though. Anyhow, the maker still puts that in the instructions that come with the product.

Truth is, I've never *let* it dry for very long and yeah, I was passing along the conventional-wisdom hearsay...my bad. Does sound like a direct parallel to the misconceptions about #16 that you and I are always debunking, huh? Heh heh, I should've caught myself on that one, inconsistencies are always a clue. Next time I use Souveran I'm gonna let it dry and see if there's anything to worry about.

Also tells me that the person teaching or endorsing the technique doesn't understand what they're talking about even if they have set themselves up to be some kind of guru.

Despite being PMed by a forum member that the above was a pointed criticism of me, I'm assuming that the above was *not* really directed at me as you and I are always on the same page regarding the use of waxes such as #16. Not that I'd ever consider myself to be a "guru" anyhow and, heh heh, the people who set *themselves* up as such never seem to be the real deal, huh?

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by Accumulator



Despite being PMed by a forum member that the above was a pointed criticism of me, I'm assuming that the above was *not* really directed at me as you and I are always on the same page regarding the use of waxes such as #16.

What I wrote was not directed at you and I tried my best to preface my post to start with, it was more targeted at others that post the WOWO method as gospel truth. Before I even responded to this thread I thought about it for a while and I knew I would have to choose my words carefully as I don't see you as the big mouth piece for the WOWO technique for any product.

I'm not surprised that someone PM'd you and tried to cause strife between us specifically, or on this forum in general, but I am curious as to who it was? (You don't have to tell me, it's not that big of a deal). Let me put it this way, if it was someone who posted here often, I would be surprised, if it were someone that is a member and doesn't post here often or is not a member but instead is a lurker, then I wouldn't be surprised. Sometimes people read more into something that's posted than is meant by the poster.

I didn't mean for my take on this subject to criticize you as I know you're pretty adept at the entire wax-on, wax-off thing. I did take into consideration that it could be certain circumstances that determined your results? I don't know because I've used the Pinnacle waxes enough to know that when they are applied to a properly prepared surface or to a surface that is clean and smooth, using a thin coat, they wipe off easy after they have dried.

Give it a try sometime and post back here what you experience, could be I'm way off base...

Not that I'd ever consider myself to be a "guru" anyhow and, heh heh, the people who set *themselves* up as such never seem to be the real deal, huh?

Pride goeth before a fall...

It's best not to ever set yourself up as a guru about anything because you're just setting yourself up for a fall.

I hope most people after reading this will weigh the heavier issues that I did my best to bring up such as,

Anytime you apply a paint protection product and then immediately wipe it off... how can you be leaving anything behind? (Assuming the goal is to leave something behind?)

Or

Anytime a manufacture states to apply and then remove the product before it dries, to take a moment and wonder if the wax company really knows what they're doing, or at least have chemists that know what they're doing?

Maybe it's just me but when I see both of the above things posted it instantly raises red flags.

Reminds me of the guy that that sells a competitors products on another forum and in his posts he talks about how soft the clear coat paints on new Corvettes are...

Tells me he either doesn't ever work on new Corvettes, his thinking is convoluted as he has mixed up paint hardness with scratch-sensitive, or he doesn't really know what he's talking about to start with, (back to the self-proclaimed guru issue).

Peace

[Accumulator]

Mike- Cool, thanks for clearing that up. I too was choosing my words (and actions) carefully, and I even ended up soliciting an unbiased outside opinion to make sure I wasn't being paranoid or over-reacting.

FWIW, the person who PMed me did so with what I believe were good intentions. I didn't/don't see it as an attempt at stirring up strife between us, rather as a genuine, surprised response to how they interpreted your post. Not a lurker either, but somebody who's a good forum member both here and elsewhere. I hope you'll understand that I'd prefer to not divulge their identity; this has been enough of a tempest in a teapot already (sorry for adding to it). There's always a potential for miscommunication and I believe it's best to address such things openly and frankly, which is why I'm posting this here (at the risk of thread-jacking and boring people to tears ) rather than PMing you.

I will try letting the Souveran dry thoroughly and see what happens. I sincerely doubt that you're off-base, rather I just didn't apply what I know is correct to that product. Lesson: I should trust my own thinking, not what some label says or what anonymous others tell me.

Anytime a manufacture states to apply and then remove the product before it dries, to take a moment and wonder if the wax company really knows what they're doing, or at least have chemists that know what they're doing?

This has me sorta stumped as how can somebody come up with a good product but be clueless about how to use it? Sorta creates a cognitive dissonance and those always tell me that something's wrong somewhere. Upon reflection I'm kinda suspicious that maybe, just maybe, the w-o-w-o advice is a) a case of making a product needlessly bubba-proof to help boost sales, b) a way to make the product short-lived, further boosting sales (nobody buys this stuff for it's durability anyhow), and c) worthless advice to those who know how to wax. Too bad in any event as it sorta casts aspersions on Pinnacle, who make some good products. Implies that they do know what they're doing but are doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. Heh heh, I bet the same thoughts crossed your mind, but that as a Meguiar's representative it might've been too unseemly for you to post them publicly. Being a retired individual with no connection to the industry, I don't mind posting it. I'm sure they'll still take my money when I buy more Souveran

[Accumulator]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
...I've used the Pinnacle waxes enough to know that when they are applied to a properly prepared surface or to a surface that is clean and smooth, using a thin coat, they wipe off easy after they have dried.

Give it a try sometime and post back here what you experience, could be I'm way off base...

Predictably, since he was speaking from experience, Mike was *NOT* off base at all

I was refreshing the #16 on my wife's A8 yesterday, and I experimented with Souveran on the painted parts, and the unpainted black plastic areas, of the two sideview mirror housings. The temperature in the shop was mid-upper 60s and the humidity was negligible (maybe 30%).

Using a yellow foam applicator, I applied Souveran to both mirrors. On the right side I applied it a little thicker than I normally would, about what I'd expect a typical person to do if told to "apply it thin". It was clearly visible on the surface. On the left side, I applied it pretty thick. Not goofy-thick but I applied a lot more than I'd expect somebody to use.

Both applications appeared to completely flash off in a matter of a few minutes. You could see the presumably dry wax clearly. I then let them dry for an additional period of time.

I let the thinner application on the right side dry for 30 more minutes. It buffed off *very* easily, using a very soft, plush MF (the kind of MF that some find too gentle for LSP buffing).

I let the thicker application on the left side dry for an additional one hour. It too buffed off *very* easily. No problem at all.

So as Mike said, there is no downside to letting a normal application of Pinnacle Souveran dry completely and there may well be an advantage with regard to durability. The "don't let it dry" instruction that I had perpetuated is not necessary and the "it will be hard to buff off if you let it dry" warning which I also perpetuated is downright untrue. I stand corrected.

Heh heh, I really learned something as a result of this thread, both about posting conventional wisdom-type info that I haven't verified through first-hand experience and about applying a product I've used for many years!