More swirls I need help :(

[adamd123]

OK well I have decided that I can not wash a car to save my life! I have a new (1 week old) Black Audi A4. Last week I washed, polished and waxed it using the following method:

WASH/DRY
-Spray Car down
-Fill two buckets one with NXT Car Wash, the other with water for rinsing in-between.
-Scrub with as much suds as possible starting from the roof down.
-Rinse
-Dry with Water Magnet

DETAIL
-Deep Crystal System (Buff with Meg's Supreme Shine MF towel)
-Deep Crystal Polish (Buff with different Meg's Supreme Shine MF towel)
-2 or 3 Layers of NXT Wax (Each buffed with a different MF towel)

And after that routine I found that I had a TON of swirl marks in my paint. Today I just wanted to clean the car up so I washed, dried and polished (NO wax just polish) Using same technique as above, and found that my car has even more swirl marks (This time I used brand new Megs MF towels to buff)

I am at a loss... What can I do differently? Is there any way to remove these swirls that are now all over my car? Is there any way to not scratch black paint? Or do swirls just come with the territory when you choose to buy a black car.

Here are some pictures I took:



Thanks for any help or tips you guys can give me!

-Adam

[Superior Shine]

Or do swirls just come with the territory when you choose to buy a black car.

Almost!


It takes ALLOT of work to keep a dark colored vehicle swirl free.

[black240sx]

It could be a lot of the swirls where there when you bought the car, but hidden by a glaze that the dealer applied.

As you wash the car, the glaze comes off to reveal the swirls.

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Adam,

I have to leave for a class right now, (AMYS), so I'll be offline most of the day, at least until late tonight.


Experiences like yours are posted to our forum occasionally and like Joe said, taking care of black and maintaining a swirls free flawless finish requires a lot more work than any other color.

For the most part, in order to keep black paint looking its best in any lighting condition, you're going to need to find a wax you like and use it often, at least as often as you wash your car and expose it to the environment as a daily driver.

[Hannibal]

Gold Class Paste Wax for dark vehicles. I agree that there may have been a temporary "glaze" or something on it when you bought it and it has now washed off. I found this thread most helpful, it concerns using the G100 DA (random orbit polisher)

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2965

I bought a Chevrolet Silverado 4 months ago and after one or two washes the swirls were there along with some covered up scratches. Not very bad, but they were there. I have seen some amazing results on vehicles in this forum, so dont worry your gonna have a swirl free finish (It might take some work though)

Good Luck!

[Don]

One of the things I rarely see discussed when talking about washng is hand pressure. No matter what other steps you take to try and avoid swirling, if you bear down on the wash mitt like you're trying to scrub off rust with a wire brush, you will scratch/swirl your paint like crazy.

Let the soap do it's job to emulsify the dirt and lift it off the surface. First, the surface should be flooded/blasted with lots of water to try and dislodge/remove/loosen as much dirt and grime as possible.

On horizontal surfaces, I try to not use much more pressure than the weight of the soap & water filled wash mitt and on the vertical panels, just enough pressure to hold the soapy mitt against the surface. If this means I have to wash each panel twice, then so be it. The only time I actually scrub a panel to remove a stubborn spot is AFTER the panel has been washed, rinsed and the mitt has been rinsed out thoroughly so that the only thing touching my paint is cotton fibers and soapy water.

Another thing ou can do to help prevent swirling is to give the mitt a blast with the hose BEFORE dunking it in the rinse bucket, this helps ensure you get the most grit possible out of it before it touches your car's surface.

[adamd123]

Thanks a lot for the replies!
IT sounds like my best option is to purchase a D100 and try getting the swrils out with that. How hard are those to learn to use? I read te article from that link, but I am just afraid that If I caused that much damage with a hand polish... what damage could I inflict on my poor paint with a motorized device! If I lived in CA I would love to attend a Meg's class and learn from the best! Does Meguirs ever hold classes near Utah or Las Vegas?

Hey Mike:
Right now I use Meg NXT wax, because I love the finish it produces and it goes on and off easy. (smells good ). Are there any other waxes that you would recommend using? With my last vehicle I tried waxing once a month. But if I need to wax more often with black that is fine.

One thing I noticed this last wash, was that I used some new meguiars mf towels, and as I polished a lot of lint was coming out when I wiped. Should I have washed them first?

Again thanks for the feed back guys! Any other help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

-Adam

[Accumulator]

IMO the wash technique needs to be drastically altered. To even *think* the word "scrub" tells me that you're putting far too much pressure against the paint.

FWIW, I can't truly wash without marring unless I use a foamgun (try using a search engine on "Butcher's" or "gilmour" or "shower foam gun", I don't have a link handy). The idea is to "dislodge and flush" as oppose to "scrub". I'm able to wash without marring as long as I keep a slick LSP on the vehicles and I don't let them get *too* dirty. Takes a few hours of very meticulous work, but it can be done. And yeah, when I had the black rent-a-Suburban I was able to keep it clean and marring free after I'd polished it up; took about four hours and eight-ten mitts and I had to refill the foamguns a few times, but I could do it.

In the absence of a foamgun, try filling the mitt with soap solution by holding it, cuff up, under the wash solution. Hold the cuff shut and gently whisk the mitt across the finish while the solution seeps out of it. Only let the tips of the mitts nap touch the panels.

FWIW, I never do more than a small area before rinsing the mitt, maybe half a small door at the very most. Once there's a chance of any dirt being stuck to the mitt I either rinse it out or get out a fresh one. Even with the foamgun I'll use a minimum of four mitts, and that's when washing a car that is basically already clean. A dirty vehicle can take many mitts, like the Suburban did. Lots of work but it beats polishing out marring.

If something doesn't come off with the very gentle wash method, I use clay (and lots of lube) to remove it. And I'll knead the clay after *every* contact with the panel- move it across the contamination one time, knead, move it back across, knead, etc. etc.

The whole thing boils down to not moving dirt across the paint with any pressure on it.

[Don]

Originally posted by Accumulator
IMO the wash technique needs to be drastically altered. To even *think* the word "scrub" tells me that you're putting far too much pressure against the paint.

FWIW, I can't truly wash without marring unless I use a foamgun (try using a search engine on "Butcher's" or "gilmour" or "shower foam gun", I don't have a link handy). The idea is to "dislodge and flush" as oppose to "scrub". I'm able to wash without marring as long as I keep a slick LSP on the vehicles and I don't let them get *too* dirty. Takes a few hours of very meticulous work, but it can be done. And yeah, when I had the black rent-a-Suburban I was able to keep it clean and marring free after I'd polished it up; took about four hours and eight-ten mitts and I had to refill the foamguns a few times, but I could do it.

In the absence of a foamgun, try filling the mitt with soap solution by holding it, cuff up, under the wash solution. Hold the cuff shut and gently whisk the mitt across the finish while the solution seeps out of it. Only let the tips of the mitts nap touch the panels.

FWIW, I never do more than a small area before rinsing the mitt, maybe half a small door at the very most. Once there's a chance of any dirt being stuck to the mitt I either rinse it out or get out a fresh one. Even with the foamgun I'll use a minimum of four mitts, and that's when washing a car that is basically already clean. A dirty vehicle can take many mitts, like the Suburban did. Lots of work but it beats polishing out marring.

If something doesn't come off with the very gentle wash method, I use clay (and lots of lube) to remove it. And I'll knead the clay after *every* contact with the panel- move it across the contamination one time, knead, move it back across, knead, etc. etc.

The whole thing boils down to not moving dirt across the paint with any pressure on it.

NE Ohioans seem to think alike

[adamd123]

I wish I could say that the dealer was the cause of the initial scratches, but I was there when they unwraped the car, and I asked them not to detial it.

As far as the word "scrubbing" goes, I never push hard on the paint, I pretty much use the weight of my hand to determin the pressure that I use. Is that still too much?

I really feel like the majority of my scratching is coming from buffing or drying. But then again I did hear that most scratching occurs during the washing process... so maybe I should try your method of using multiple wash mits.

Any other ideas? Also from what I am hearing the best way to get rid of the scratches that I have already made is to use the D100? is that right?

Thanks again guys!

-Adam

[Accumulator]

Originally posted by adamd123
..As far as the word "scrubbing" goes, I never push hard on the paint, I pretty much use the weight of my hand to determin the pressure that I use. Is that still too much?

Yeah, IMO it is still too much pressure. I sorta figured that's what you were doing and that the "scrubbing" was kinda overstating it

I really feel like the majority of my scratching is coming from buffing or drying. But then again I did hear that most scratching occurs during the washing process...

Yeah, if you get the car clean and dry with something soft the drying won't mar it.

Any other ideas? Also from what I am hearing the best way to get rid of the scratches that I have already made is to use the D100? is that right?

Audis have pretty hard clear (I've had a *lot* of 'em, currently have two). Products like #80 will *barely* be aggressive enough for light marring. If you're lucky that's all you'll need, but be prepared to step up to something like #83 if needed. And yeah, I wouldn't even think about doing it by hand. Just doing behind the door handles (fingernail scratches ) can take *forever* if you really want to completely eliminate them- that's as much as I'll do on an Audi by hand.

[adamd123]

Accumulator:
Cool thanks for the info! I guess my next step is to look into a orbital polisher and some #80 and #83. So far I have seen a couple of names thrown around here: PC (Porter-Cable?) and D100. Are they the same thing?

My only other concern is that once I get the swirls out... Will I just put them right back into the paint? It sounds like most of you think that the cause of my scratching is coming from the washing process? The only other thing I can think of is that I am not properly caring for my MF buffing towels. As of right now I wash them in groups (MF, Cotton, etc) and use just a little bit of tide, then I put them in the dryer on the Air dry setting (no fab. softener) Does this sound right?

Thanks Guys!
-Adam

[Don]

The G-100 and the PC are the same animal.

For my microfibers and other detailing towels (and this is just the way I personally clean them), I put them in the washer with the water level set on 'low.' Then I add laundry detergent measured out for a 'large' or 'very dirty' load. Then I add 3-5 scoops of Oxy-clean, set the water temp to HOT and start the wash cycle, leaving the lid up so the water won't drain.

I usually run them through the aggitation cycle twice, then reset the water level to 'high' and let them run though another aggitation cycle, this time closing the lid to let the load go through the rinse cycle.

When the washer has gone though the complete wash & rinse cycle, I reset the machine for another full cycle (cold water this time) without adding any soap to make sure the towels/microfibers are completely rinsed.

After that, I throw them in the dryer on normal heat and when they come out, the microfibers are very "grabby" they even grab at my hands like they are made of velco. This just tells me the dryer heat isn't destroying the 'little fingers' that make microfibers so effective.

[Hannibal]

While on the subject of washing, I have found something that helps me washing my MF towels, water magnets etc.

I had used some MFs to wax, and some for drying etc. WHen I washed them together, the MF's actually repelled water like there was still a wax film on them. I srpayed them with some simple green and added one capful to the washer set temp on on "HOT" and size to "LOW", and set the speed to "HIGH" and man oh man did they come clean!!

The MF's are the original stock golden color that they were when I bought them. All my door jamb rags, wheel rags are "spotless" now, too.

I always air dry all of my washing accessories.

[Accumulator]

Originally posted by adamd123
I guess my next step is to look into a orbital polisher and some #80 and #83...
My only other concern is that once I get the swirls out... Will I just put them right back into the paint? It sounds like most of you think that the cause of my scratching is coming from the washing process?

#80 is pretty mild for use on Audis so don't be surprised if you have to use the #83 first.

I really would look into the foamgun, it can make a world of difference when it comes to wash-induced marring. I know, I'm being a broken record, but IMO it really is that great. I'm very disappointed if I have to polish more than once a year.

If your MFs feel nice and soft, and you don't see any contamination on them, then they're probably OK.