The good and the bad types of silicone.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally Posted by new2detailing

It seems that silicone gets a bad rep from many other forums.

There's a reason for that...

It's easy to simply pass along bad information and often times on other forums there's no leading authority to question bad information so it goes unchallenged and because it goes unchallenged a certain percentage of people figure it must be correct because no one challenged it.

Also, most other detailing discussion forums whether they are a dedicated detailing discussion forum or a segment of a theme-based discussion forum, (for example Corvetteforum.com is a theme-based discussion forum but they have a sub-forum for questions on detailing), it's a free-for-all environment which is a good thing, we offer a free-for-all environment but were also a HUGE supplier of non-silicone products as we've been making non-silicone products longer than most people posting to discussion forums have been alive.


As a manufacture of products for both fresh paint and cured paint we have expertise for ALL segments of the market while most of the products you read about on detailing discussion forums are made by companies that only cater to the OTC market, that is the retail market, (both online and traditional), and that means the only make products for "cured" paint" for example the paint on a new car while we make products that can be used on paint as soon as it's tack-free, fresh out of the paint booth.

Huge difference in product offering and the expertise that goes with it.

Originally Posted by new2detailing

However, it seems to be an essential ingredient to many products.

Have posted so many times in the past but here goes again...

If Meguiar's chemist include ANY ingredient in ANY formula/product, it's for one of two reasons and usually both...

1. It's a benefit to the process
2. It's a benefit to the user

To help make it very clear to anyone that might not understand the above...

An example of #1 would be an abrasive is a key ingredient in a product intended to be used to remove below surface defects, therefore an abrasive in a compound is a benefit to the process.

An example of #2 would be be a silicone can be used to make a product easier to spread out and wipe off, that's a benefit to the user.

There are all kinds of silicones and most of the fear mongering over this single ingredient is by people that don't understand that body shops understand that before painting any car... they need to properly prepare the paint and that would include removing anything from the surface that could interfere with surface adhesion before the paint is sprayed.

Here's the text a question from our FAQ that addresses this topic in detail...

Are products that contain silicone bad for my car's finish?

No. In fact, automotive paints worldwide contain silicone as an ingredient to help the paint to spray and flow more smoothly.

Most of the concerns people have about silicones and products that contain silicones stem from the problems associated with them in the early 1950's. Back then, 40 and 50 years ago, if the surface wasn’t properly prepared, residual silicones on the surface or in the shop environment, could cause surface adhesion problems. The most common among them is a defect referred to Fish Eyes in the paint.

Fish Eyes are a small, circular craters that appear in the finish where the paint piles up in a circle surrounding a point on the surface that contains some type of contaminant that creates high surface tension, usually some type of wax, grease or silicone. The reason freshly sprayed paint does this is because contaminants like wax and silicone tend to create high surface tension and do not allow the freshly applied paint to stick or adhere properly. Instead of laying down flat over the top of these contaminants, the paint moves away from these contaminants, forming a ring around them that has the visual appearance of what is historically described as a "fish eye".

Knowledge of chemistry, as well as most other technologies have evolved and grown substantially since the 1950's (just look at modern cars and personal computers as two very visible, common examples of how technology has progressed). The problems painters encountered 50 years ago are more easily addressed with today's modern paint prepping chemicals, shop environments, paint additives, and most importantly, education. Back in the 1950's, there were no formal training programs available for young men and women entering the automotive repair industry. Most of the time, a person would start out at the bottom, sweeping and cleaning up, and slowly move up the ladder through knowledge gained by on-the-job training. Today there are hundreds of certified schools that specialize in formal education for the automotive industry. This includes paint manufacturers, who provide in-depth training for anyone who uses their paint systems.

Most professionals in the refinishing industry understand that a majority of the paintwork they do, day-in and day-out, is on cars that have been waxed using products that contain both wax and silicone.

Professionals in the body shop industry always perform the necessary preparation work required to insure that "fish eyes" are not a problem. This includes using special degreasers, wax and silicone removers that effectively remove these substances from the surface or chemically alter their molecular structure in such a way to insure they pose no problems. If there is ever any question or doubt about the surface to which new paint is going to be applied, painters will include a Fish Eye Eliminator into the paint, which insures a finish free from fish eyes. Interestingly enough, Fish Eye Eliminator is typically a special silicone additive.

There are many kinds of silicones available for use in car care products, the one thing all silicones have in common is they are completely inert. This means they do not react in either a negative or a positive manner with any substance they come into contact with, including your car's paint.


Silicones are primarily used to modify or enhance a specific characteristic of another ingredient in a Meguiar's formula. If the silicones Meguiar's relies on didn't offer some type of positive benefit to the product, or the end-user and the results they are trying to achieve, Meguiar's wouldn't include them in their formulas.

For example: The use of some types of silicone in a formula acts to make the product easier to both spread and wipe-off, thus reducing the effort required to apply and remove the product, which then helps to reduce the potential for application or wipe-off inflicted scratches. That’s a benefit to you.

Meguiar's has been the leader in creating paintable, body shop safe products because of our history and continuing leadership in creating state-of-the-art formulas for use by new car manufacturers as well as the collision repair and custom painting industries. Because of our expertise in creating wax and silicone-free products for fresh paint environments, you will find many of our paint cleaners and polishes are paintable and body shop safe.


Because Meguiar's is a major supplier to the automotive finishing industry, both to OEM (factory level) and the re-finishing industry (collision repair, body shops and custom paint shops), Meguiar's can offer you a complete selection of paintable products including at least one polish that contains a paintable polymer for increased protection.

The fear and confusion surrounding this single ingredient, silicone, is an ongoing problem people run into when they get caught up in the hype and misinformation spread from person to person, generation to generation and now-a-days, on the Internet, which exaggerates the problems surrounding the use of silicones in car care products.

There are some sources that even go so far to say that silicones are harmful to paint. This is not only dishonest; it calls into question the credibility of that resource and any and all claims they make. Silicone is inert. It cannot harm paint, let alone anything else it is formulated into, or sitting on top of, especially in the form of a coating of wax.

As discussion forums continue to evolve, the important factor that will insure you can take the information you get from one is whether or not it helps you to be successful when you work on your car in the garage. And if something goes wrong... someone to come back to that's held accountable for the information on the forum.

We take great pride in that the how-to information and the products that accompany this how-to information on this forum have a history of helping our members and yes our 'lurkers' of dong just that.

We encourage everyone to post their questions to as many forums as they deem worthy and then everyone can decide for themselves who to trust.

The Internet in general and discussion forums in specific are the ultimate equalizers because you the customer can talk back....
(unless your a lurker)

[Michael Stoops]

I entered into a little discussion on another car forum about both silicones and petroleum distillates, and the amount of disinformation and gross lack of knowledge was astounding. One poster went so far as to say he only uses brand "X" because their interior vinyl and rubber protectant contained no silicones or petroleum distillates at all - he would never let those ingredients anywhere near his car because they are the worst thing one could possibly use on those surfaces. Swore up and down that 5 years of regular use with brand "X" and he never had a problem.

In this case brand "X" is a highly respected boutique product and I thought his choice in product was a very reasonable one. But I highly doubted his claim that it was silicone and petroleum distillate free - so I requested an MSDS sheet for the product. Yep, it's loaded with silicone. Not a bad thing obviously as that one particular poster has been using the stuff regularly for 5 years without a hint of trouble. But he was terribly misinformed not only about silicones in general but about the very same "high end" product he was using.

Like Mike Phillips said, it's easy to pass along bad information.

[Mike Phillips]

It's funny when someone says,

"I won't use a product with petroleum distillates on my car's paint"

Modern car paints include petroleum distillates, in fact some of the base ingredients that make up the actual resin are either derived from petroleum crude oil or liquid petroleum gas, (LPG), thus what they're saying is...

"I won't use petroleum distillates on my petroleum distillate"

Kind of funny...

And of course there's always this example of how dangerous petroleum distillates can be...

Chap-Stick, a product you apply to your lips contains 44% Petrolatums




See these threads also on petroleum distillates...

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11116
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19470
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19664
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26020


And here's an article on silcones...
The Role Silicone Plays in Car Care Products

At some point... you just have to put your trust in the name on the bottle... our bottle or some other companies bottle...

Who you going to trust?

[H.E.D]

i had a bad experience with meguiars leather cleaner and conditioner. i applied it to a mercedez black leather interior and it seemed that the silicone in it hazed the leather, luckily i only did one seat and quickly removed it with apc and hot water.

[miahjohn]

Great write up mike. so....i trust that all the silicone products meguiars makes for my tires are safe and won't dry them out? Also, in my search for the right tire dressing I have found that most of them I have tried do leave a brown color on the tire that is very difficult to clean off. what causes that?

ps will be buying meguiars hyper dressing soon!

[Holden_Caulfield04]

Originally Posted by miahjohn

Great write up mike. so....i trust that all the silicone products meguiars makes for my tires are safe and won't dry them out? Also, in my search for the right tire dressing I have found that most of them I have tried do leave a brown color on the tire that is very difficult to clean off. what causes that?

ps will be buying meguiars hyper dressing soon!

The brown colour is an effect known as 'browning' and is usually a symptom of a tire that hasn't been cleaned thoroughly. Get in there with a brush and scrub. That's my best advice.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally Posted by miahjohn

Also, in my search for the right tire dressing I have found that most of them I have tried do leave a brown color on the tire that is very difficult to clean off. what causes that?

See page 2 of this thread...

Will some tire cleaner/foams/dressings dry rot your tires?

[Mike Pennington]

Originally Posted by H.E.D

i had a bad experience with meguiars leather cleaner and conditioner. i applied it to a mercedez black leather interior and it seemed that the silicone in it hazed the leather, luckily i only did one seat and quickly removed it with apc and hot water.

Just to ensure this thread / post does not go in the wrong direction...

To blame "silicone" is a pretty powerful statement, see all above posts

A better way to for all to receive your post is....you had undesirable results with one of our leather products, so you removed it and corrected it with apc & hot water.

We know there are times when a product may not work as expected, and we also know we will not satisfy everyone all the time, but our goal on MOL is to make sure good information is spread.



Mike

[Mike Pennington]

Originally Posted by miahjohn

Also, in my search for the right tire dressing I have found that most of them I have tried do leave a brown color on the tire that is very difficult to clean off. what causes that?

The brown color is not being left behind by the tire dressing, that is actually antiozonants being released from the tire by design.

In the tire industry it is referred to as "blooming".

Mike

[Michael Stoops]

"Blooming" seems to be more noticeable on some brands of tires than others and can also be effected by amount of exposure to harsh sun and/or amount of use. Recently with my own vehicles I had one with an extremely high degree of "blooming" or "browning" of the sidewalls. All the cars had different a different brand of tire: Michelin, Falken, BFGoodrich and Continental. All tires were cleaned the same way (APC diluted 10:1) and treated with the exact same tire dressing (Hot Shine Tire Coating). Only the Michelin tires exhibited the browning of the sidewalls - a dead giveaway that the tire dressing was not the cause.