D151 Questions

[Andy M.]

Hey 3Fitty,

Just spoke to Tim Lingor. Here is his answer to your questions.

1. Because of the new type of abrasives, the length of time for buffing varies for the task at hand. Generally, I found that I needed to work it a little longer than I would say M83 DACP. This could be 3-4 minutes over an 18”x18” area, depending on the humidity and temperature.
2. I found that it tends to respond best to a W-8006 Polishing pad. But again, it depends on what one is trying to accomplish. If there are heavy swirls, it does work well with a W-7006 pad on a rotary, but on the DA one could run into problems with paint hazing. Therefore, I stick to the W-8006 with the D151 for general/light swirl removal. If it requires more than that, I will use M105 and a rotary.
3. For finishing with D151, I use the W-9006 Finishing Pad, but with the DA set to speed 4-5, rather than my usual 3-4.
4. The real trick with using D151 is the amount of downward pressure being applied to the DA. D151 seems to respond best with a heavier amount of pressure being applied in all of the polishing and finishing steps. I also tend to use a higher speed, at around 5 for most work.
5. Finally, white paint can be extremely hard, making swirl removal difficult at best, without a rotary being used. It can be done with the DA and M105 or if it is fairly fresh paint. Therefore, I would use the D151, W-8006 Polishing Pad with the DA set to speed 5 or even speed 6 (be aware that at speed 6, you may wreck the pad), apply heavy enough downward pressure until the buffer starts to bog but still rotates, then lighten up for the last pass only.

Hope that helps even a little more.




Andy

[Mike Phillips]

Originally Posted by 3Fitty

In any event, this was the first time I've ever seen the "cleaning" effect of a product on paint. Prior to this, all the cars I've worked on were relatively new or well kept. However, on white, you could REALLY see the difference in how D151 was cleaning the paint. Just amazing.

Your observation mimics mine back in 1995 or 1996 when I detailed Lynn's 1989 Honda Prelude for the second time and then wrote this article.

A lesson from white paint

The original title was, The Lesson White Paint Teaches Us


The lesson being that the paint on daily drivers gets dirty, not like in dirt on the car but a type of dirt staining that is actually in the upper surface area of the paint and like you observed, you could see this staining effect in the white paint, (probably after you cleaned a section and then compared it to the un-touched section).

Point being, had you been working on a black car that had been used, driven, parked etc, in the exact same manner as this white car you're working on, the paint would also be stained but due to the color the staining effect would be more difficult to see.

And the bigger picture was to use the article to explain to the reader that if their car is a daily driver, exposed to the elements, then the paint on their car gets dirty and needs to be cleaned either with a cleaner/wax or a paint cleaner even if it's a black or medium to dark color and they don't see the staining effect due to the color.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally Posted by Andy M.

[*] Finally, white paint can be extremely hard

Just to note, this usually can be said about white single stage paint as then you're working on pigmented paint and the pigment used to make white paint, (titanium dioxide powder), tends to make any resin it's added to harder just like any resin carbon black, (black pigment), is added to tends to make that resin softer.

This is also referenced in this article,

A lesson from white paint

The Mohs Scale of Hardness


In 1822, an Austrian scientist by the name of Fredrick Mohs created a scale from 1 to 10, for measuring and determining hardness. Hardness refers to the measure of resistance a surfaces has to abrasion. Talc is rated at 1 while a diamond is rated at 10.

Titanium dioxide, the substance used as pigmentation in white paint, is rated at 7 on the Mohs scale. As far as pigments go, titanium dioxide is very hard. By contrast, black paints, (single-stage), are soft. The pigment used to make paint black is Carbon black, which has a Mohs hardness rating of 2.

If you're working on a clear-coated white paint job then the hardness or softness is based solely upon the clear layer of paint and that type of paint could be sprayed on any color and the underlying color never affects the hardness of softness of the clear layer.

If that makes sense...

[3Fitty]

Oh Al... why would you do that to me? I ended up reading that entire thread and while Kevin's info was great, it ultimately became just another autopia thread...

Can I top with this?

What if I put 47 layers on top of 151 will it work?

It fills too much.

It doesn't fill enough.

It's oily.

It's dry.

It's working time is too long.

It's working time is too short.

The oils in D151 will cause bonding issues.

No, if you supercharge the polymers, there will be no bonding issues.

(3Fitty getting ready to smack someone).

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah... Now my head hurts, need a Tylenol! Thanks!

[3Fitty]

Originally Posted by Mike Phillips

The lesson being that the paint on daily drivers gets dirty, not like in dirt on the car but a type of dirt staining that is actually in the upper surface area of the paint and like you observed, you could see this staining effect in the white paint, (probably after you cleaned a section and then compared it to the un-touched section).

Point being, had you been working on a black car that had been used, driven, parked etc, in the exact same manner as this white car you're working on, the paint would also be stained but due to the color the staining effect would be more difficult to see.

Mike,

This is exactly 100% what happened to me today. You know, I've always done the "cleaning" step in the five step approach, because I was supposed to, without ever seeing the tangible reasons for doing so. Today was the first time I saw the need for the cleaning step.

I clayed the car and it wasn't too bad but it still was "stained", however, once I got to it with D151, bingo... it was amazing.

The difference between the areas with D151 and the areas without, was hard to believe. It almost looked like two different colors.

I'm kind of kicking myself for not taking pics now.

[3Fitty]

Originally Posted by Andy M.

Hey 3Fitty,

Just spoke to Tim Lingor. Here is his answer to your questions.

1. Because of the new type of abrasives, the length of time for buffing varies for the task at hand. Generally, I found that I needed to work it a little longer than I would say M83 DACP. This could be 3-4 minutes over an 18”x18” area, depending on the humidity and temperature.
2. I found that it tends to respond best to a W-8006 Polishing pad. But again, it depends on what one is trying to accomplish. If there are heavy swirls, it does work well with a W-7006 pad on a rotary, but on the DA one could run into problems with paint hazing. Therefore, I stick to the W-8006 with the D151 for general/light swirl removal. If it requires more than that, I will use M105 and a rotary.
3. For finishing with D151, I use the W-9006 Finishing Pad, but with the DA set to speed 4-5, rather than my usual 3-4.
4. The real trick with using D151 is the amount of downward pressure being applied to the DA. D151 seems to respond best with a heavier amount of pressure being applied in all of the polishing and finishing steps. I also tend to use a higher speed, at around 5 for most work.
5. Finally, white paint can be extremely hard, making swirl removal difficult at best, without a rotary being used. It can be done with the DA and M105 or if it is fairly fresh paint. Therefore, I would use the D151, W-8006 Polishing Pad with the DA set to speed 5 or even speed 6 (be aware that at speed 6, you may wreck the pad), apply heavy enough downward pressure until the buffer starts to bog but still rotates, then lighten up for the last pass only.

Hope that helps even a little more.




Andy

That was a great help. Thank Andy! Amazing info, as always.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally Posted by 3Fitty

I'm kind of kicking myself for not taking pics now.

Someone on this forum recently captured side-by-side, before and after pictures of stained/cleaned white paint.

Let me see if I can find it...

[Mike Phillips]

Here's the thread by TimG and a picture from it,

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28774

[Wilco]

this is an awesome thread. i really need this. ive ordered my D151 down here in aust and boy i'm real excited to work with this baby.

im glad 3fitty you asked these questions and mike along with andy m responded with the answers i needed to aid me on how d151 works. just wondering though, on the 0 to 10 scale, how aggressive would d151 be?

i understand that #83 is on the 6 scale and #66 is on the 4-5 scale.

d151 is so handy cuz im just so lazy when it comes to cleaning pads, esp when i cant get machine washables like softbuff 2.0's!

[3Fitty]

Wilco,

I'm sure you'll love D151. I'm not sure where it rates, but check out this thread here http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=28407, which shows the relative strength of the Meg's line.

As I understand it (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), D151 is more aggressive than M83 but less than M105 so it would sit somewhere in between. Where exactly, I'm not sure.

One of the things I would remind you to try (which I forgot) is to use it on your headlights, the way Tim did. You get the best of both worlds... correction + protection. It is really an efficient product.