How to avoid swirls and holograms?

[chip douglas]

How to avoid swirls and holograms?


Do you *always* get holograms with a rotary, even with a finishing pad and say #82 ? I was trying to attempt making a clear coated finish perfect using only a rotary, and I've almost concluded it can't be done and needs to be followed up with the PC.

If I do not wash the car and bring it out in the bright sunlight, then it looks perfect with #82, BUT if I remove the #82, then I can see the very light holograms.

My car is black btw.

Marc

[Mike Phillips]

Re: To Mike or anyone with lots of experience.

Originally posted by chip douglas
Do you *always* get holograms with a rotary, even with a finishing pad and say #82 ? I was trying to attempt making a clear coated finish perfect using only a rotary, and I've almost concluded it can't be done and needs to be followed up with the PC.

If I do not wash the car and bring it out in the bright sunlight, then it looks perfect with #82, BUT if I remove the #82, then I can see the very light holograms.

My car is black btw.

Marc

Not always. It really depends on product selection, skill, technique and paint hardness, or paint workability. THe latter two factors are things which you have no control over. Having too soft of a paint system can also work against you because the paint will be easily scratched or swirled.

I would say that in most cases, if you wash the car after polishing with a rotary buffer and any companies pad and polish, and then pull the car into bright light such as sunlight, then you are going to see some light swirls or holograms depending on your process. Most polishes are easily removed with water and soap, especially detergent soaps.

To create a 100% swirl-free finish requires that you do everything you can to the best of your abilities to remove as many of the deeper defects from the finish as you can using a compound or cleaner/polish. Then using good technique, the correct pad and a finer polish, you re-polish the area and massage out any remaining haze or swirls from the first step.

If you do everything right you can get to about 98% to 99% of the way to your goal of a swirl free finish. In order to take your results over the top to perfection, you will have to re-polish the finish using a machine that oscillates instead of rotates, and/or apply a product that will fill-in and eliminate from your view, the very fine, or shallow swirls that may still remain.

Just to note, achieving perfection on a painted surface will always be influenced by things like paint hardness and/or softness. The harder the paint, the more difficult it will be to massage out each and every defect, while very soft paints will be prone to marring or micro-scratching. There is a sweet spot for paint harness that gives you the best of both worlds, hardness for durability and resistance to deteriorating, yet soft enough that it can be successfully polished. This unfortunately is something you can't control.

Your point of origin, or reference must also be considered. If you start out with a finish that has gross swirls, as in deep swirls possibly instilled by running the car repeatedly through a mechanical car wash, or perhaps it was machine buffed using a wool pad and a compound that doesn't utilize diminishing abrasives, no polish or wax is going to be able to fill-in deep swirls like this and make the paint look good. So if by using a rotary buffer you can effectively remove the deep swirls, scratches, oxidation, etching, (or whatever the defects are), and create a finish that is 99% of the way swirl-free, then the difference between the condition of the finish you started with and the condition of the finish you have created will be dramatic.

Final polishing with the dual action polisher and a fine polish like our #82 Swirl Free Polish or our #9 Swirl Remover 2.0, and even our #80 Speed Glaze, or a good quality polish or wax, (or both), will be enough to carry your results over the top.

It all comes down to the fact that in order to remove a defect you have to touch the surface, (in one way or another), and remove small particles of paint in an effort to level or flatten the surface. The trick then is to use a system that is able to remove defects, without instilling its own defects.

Does this help?

Mike

[Desertdawg]

Hi Marc,
Sounds like it's time for you to order a couple of new products.

First off, I only use a rotary, and while I'm not a professional, I can still achieve spectacular results, I think using the correct product is my biggest asset.

I would recommend using some #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 with the appropriate Meguiar’s foam buffing pad This will follow the MOL slogan, "Use the least abrasive product you can"

Also there are some good points to learn by watching the Barry Meguiar’s Swirl Marks Clinic .

[Desertdawg]

Dang it, beat to the post button by Mike again......
2 lousy minutes...

[Mike Phillips]

Re: To Mike or anyone with lots of experience.

Originally posted by chip douglas
Do you *always* get holograms with a rotary, even with a finishing pad and say #82 ?

When you say a finishing pad, which pad are your referring to?

Mike

[chip douglas]

Megs's finishing pad Miike.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by chip douglas
Megs's finishing pad Mike.

Check. Just wanted to make sure you didn't mean finishing pad as in a wool finishing pad.

Mike

[chip douglas]

I never use wool pads Mike . But is it normal to get light holograms from Meg's finishing pads ? Could it be the pad is worn and is the cause of those problems, as I didn't get any holograms on my girlfriend's car. Perhaps her paint was easier to work with and it is a SS, and mine is BC/CC.

I'd just like to know what can cause holograms with a finishing pad, as it is ever so soft to start with.

thanks

Marc

[chip douglas]

Mike,

I'm sure you'll understand if I tell you that it gets very confusing, as some swear they can bring the paint flawless with the rotary alone, while others swear a PC has to be used, and the rotary buffer will never make a paint perfect alone.

There is however something I puzzled about which is : last summer I had no experience with the buffer, and didn't get any holograms. I was using 3M's polishing pad as well as their PI III machine glaze. I've tried doing the same thing this year with the same combo, and got holograms. I'm lost. To add even more confusion, on the trunk lid using Meg's finishing pad (this year, on my black car) I didn't get any holograms, which tells me there might be something wrong with my techique on other panels.

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by chip douglas
Mike,

I'm sure you'll understand if I tell you that it gets very confusing, as some swear they can bring the paint flawless with the rotary alone,

Some people I've met in my life never think to inspect their work in bright sunlight, they only look at the results they get in their shop lighting. To their eyes, and in their perspective, it's swirl-free and flawless. So the lesson here is not everyone uses the same standard to judge their work.

I worked with a paint shop in the last year or so that has two very talented painters, but they don't do the wet sanding, cutting and buffing. I was asked to take a look at the finished work as the painter was very proud of his work. The detailer had just finishing his final buff with the rotary buffer; I was asked what I thought of the results? I said, "It looked good in the shade", but let's move the car into the sun and inspect it. We moved the car into the sun and low and behold the hood was completely filled with swirls. (We only pushed the front of the car into the sun, I'm sure the entire finish looked the same). It could be the painter had no idea how his work was going out the door if he never inspected the work in two kinds of light.

while others swear a PC has to be used, and the rotary buffer will never make a paint perfect alone.

See my first reply.

There is however something I puzzled about which is : last summer I had no experience with the buffer, and didn't get any holograms. I was using 3M's polishing pad as well as their PI III machine glaze. I've tried doing the same thing this year with the same combo, and got holograms. I'm lost. To add even more confusion, on the trunk lid using Meg's finishing pad (this year, on my black car) I didn't get any holograms, which tells me there might be something wrong with my technique on other panels.

See my first reply.

Mike

[Ojai]

You should never have finish with a PC to get flawless results. If you use the right techniques when finishing it will be perfect. The only time I use a PC instead of my Makita is on composite panels to keep heat down.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: How to avoid swirls and holograms?

You should never have finish with a PC to get flawless results. If you use the right techniques when finishing it will be perfect. The only time I use a PC instead of my Makita is on composite panels to keep heat down.

Just to note, in some cases it's not about you or your choice of products it's about the paint, some paints don't polish out as well as others.

[asim_296]

Re: How to avoid swirls and holograms?

1- make sure pads + panel are clean
2- use the massage techniqe specially with diminishing abrasives, decrease your hand pressure after couple of passes throu single application.

use these steps also in the spot area.

[Dav_C]

Re: How to avoid swirls and holograms?

I find finishing pad (W9006) at low rpm (about 200) works very well with #80. Not all machines can do 200 rpm though. For reference, that's on a Honda factory paint.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: How to avoid swirls and holograms?

I find finishing pad (W9006) at low rpm (about 200) works very well with #80. Not all machines can do 200 rpm though. For reference, that's on a Honda factory paint.

Interesting.

And after wiping the M80 residue and inspecting the paint in full, bright sunlight there were no swirls?