is this the correct order & is there any overkill?

[echoguy]

Every January I do the following to my 2002 corvette, this is a show car that has won many awards.I am looking for a deep shine with enough layers to protect from chips and I am also looking for brake dust repelling feature of an anti-static.
In this order:
1) Wash with Meguiar’s (NTX) car wash
2) Mother’s (California gold) clay bar & Showtime detailer
3) 1200 grit rubbing compound.
4) 1500 grit rubbing compound.
5) Meguiar’s ( NTX) Car Wash.
6) Meguiar’s (Medallion) paint cleaner = 3 layers
7) Meguiar’s glaze #5 = 3 layers
8) Meguiar’s (NTX) tech wax = 3 layers
9) Meguiar’s (Medallion) premium paint protector (static remover) = 3 layers
10) Meguiar’s (mirror glaze) final inspection #34

Last year, I was told by a Meguiar’s tech to use all of these products
as the glaze will polish, the wax will protect and the paint protector will give anti static for brake dust and anti water spot. Recently a Meguire’s tech asked me why I use both NTX wax then cover it with Paint Protector as they are both wax, this brought me to write this letter, I need proper information to care for my car not just to get me to buy product.

My questions are as follows:

1) are these products abrasive?
2) when I add a second or third layer, am I removing the previous layer?
3) when I apply the next product, am I removing the previous product?
4) How long should I wait between layers?
5) Is the Glaze #5 abrasive? It feels as if it is removing everything
6) I was told that the detailer will remove the wax and the Final Inspection will not Is this true?
7) what detail spray should I use to remove bird dropping and water spots when arriving to a show?
8) I was told to use the Paint protector over the wax to repel dust and eliminate future water spots is this what I should do?
9) Is there a difference wether I apply and remove by hand or low speed 4" electric polisher ?

[Mike Phillips]

Hi echoguy,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online!


You ask a lot of questions that are sometimes best if you break them up into individual posts as this makes them easier to handle. But let us see what we can do...

(lots of typing coming up)


By the way, there is no way the person that told you this would be a Direct Meguiar's Employee as all Meguiar's employees attend training classes and would not lead you to purchase so many products and apply so many applications.

I'll answer these later as it's noon here in SoCal and I'm taking my wife Lynn out for lunch as it's her birthday!

http://www.showcargarage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18
http://forum.bettercarcare.com/showthread.php?t=443

See you in an hour or two...

Hang in there, we'll set the record straight... for starters, here are two threads to read,


Meguiar's 5-Step Paint Care Cycle

How To Remove Swirls By Hand

[Mike Phillips]

Here's another one that will address Meguiar's opinion on layering... See my reply in the below thread...

What's the Deal with "Layering"?

[Murr1525]

I Guess I'll preface Mikes reply, to get the ball rollling...

1) Well, the rubbing compounds are certainly abrasive. I ma not sure about the Medalion Paint cleaner.. It is definately a strong paint cleaner.

2. In some cases. 2 and 3 layers of polish and paint cleaner really arent doing anything. Since you are wiping off the cleaner after applying, there isnt really anything left behind. The layers of polish are also either removing each other, or not affecting each other, and you are wiping the new layer back off. Nxt Tech Wax has mild cleaners, so it to will remove some of the wax put on before it.

3. Well, no cleaner should be left behind really.. the polish remains in the pores, and then the wax sits on top. So all are doing their job, not sure if you consider that removing the previous step.

4. If you are really going to do multiple layers of cleaner/polish, then no time is needed. For waxes/sealants, a minimum of 20 minutes is ok, though 12 hours is absolute best.

5. No, #5 is not abrasive, though there shouldnt be anything on the paint for it to remove. If your paint is feeling rough after cleaning/polishing, it probably needs clayed beforehand.

6. No, both are fine for keeping up the shine on wax. Some people like the look, or cost of one over the other. And dont spray on fresh wax.

7. QD or Final Inspection, or the Nxt Speed Detailer, with a soft microfiber should do best to remove ****.

8. Well, your paint will generaly look like the top layer of wax. Different waxes give different looks. If you like the look, and it is working for you, then stick with it. Very hard water spots, and acid rain can get through most anything, so it is best to not let the msit on any wax.

9. Well, the better the machine you use, the better the results. I am sure with a quality 4" polisher you could get good results. I know the G-100 DA Polisher will give much better results when cleaning/polishing/waxing than by hand. Definately another level.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: is this the correct order & is there any overkill?

Originally posted by echoguy
Every January I do the following to my 2002 corvette, this is a show car that has won many awards.I am looking for a deep shine with enough layers to protect from chips and I am also looking for brake dust repelling feature of an anti-static.
In this order:
1) Wash with Meguiar’s (NXT) car wash
2) Mother’s (California gold) clay bar & Showtime detailer

Good till this point.

3) 1200 grit rubbing compound.
4) 1500 grit rubbing compound.

Did you really rub these products against your clear coat finish? If you did, your questions here should be how to remove scratches out of a clear coat and the answer would be here,

How to remove a defect by hand with ScratchX

How To Remove Swirls By Hand

Using the G-100 to remove swirls with the Professional Line

5) Meguiar’s ( NXT) Car Wash.

This was is to remove all the leftover compound residue?

6) Meguiar’s (Medallion) paint cleaner = 3 layers

You can apply multiple applications of a paint cleaner to remove defects but you cannot layer a paint cleaner. See Step 2 in the Meguiar's 5-Step Paint Care Cycle

7) Meguiar’s glaze #5 = 3 layers

You only need to apply one application of a pure polish to get the desired results. You cannot layer a pure polish. See Step 3 of the Meguiar's 5-Step Paint Care Cycle

8) Meguiar’s (NXT) tech wax = 3 layers

You can layer some waxes and NXT Tech Wax is one type of wax you can layer but after the second or third application the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in.

9) Meguiar’s (Medallion) premium paint protector (static remover) = 3 layers

You can layer some waxes and Medallion is one type of wax you can layer but after the second or third application the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in.

Remember, when we talk about layering, we need to first hammer down who's definition of the word layering you're using, there are a lot of self-appointed guru's filling the Internet Super Highway with nothing but their opinions and we all know what that is worth.

Copied and pasted from Meguiar's *NEW* FAQ ,

13. Can Meguiar's waxes be "Layered"?

Meguiar's waxes can be layered, but two things must be tended to when layering waxes. 1) You must use the right waxes ("Layerable" waxes), and 2) You must recognize that at some point, "The Law of Diminishing Returns" takes effect.


Layerable waxes

A Layerable wax, is a wax that the protective ingredients used in the formula (natural and synthetic), are such that the protective layer left behind will not only adhere to the paint, but in subsequent applications, will adhere to itself. It also means that the carrying agents, be they solvent, water or something else, cannot be strong enough or in high enough concentrations to re-liquefy the previously applied layer, thus removing it during your attempt to add another layer.

Layerable waxes are primarily pure waxes, or protectants (as synthetic formulas are referred to) that do not contain chemical cleaners, or solvents that will remove the previous layer.

There is an exception to this rule and that is that it is possible to first apply a cleaner wax, and then apply a pure wax or pure synthetic over it.


The Law of Diminishing Returns
(Thomas Malthus "Essay on the Principle of Population" published in 1798.)

While this theory is generally used to discuss topics as they relate to the areas of economics and politics, it is a model that can also be used to explain in this case, the complex action occurring at the microscopic level on the surface of your car's finish.

The law of diminishing returns as it relates to layering,

A surface, such as an automotive paint, can only hold so much product before all you're doing is removing all subsequent coatings applied to the surface.


That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to cure.

At this point you've reached a plateau (or limit), as to how much wax (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer.

Of course, this all depends upon your definition of the word "Layer". If your definition of the word layer follows that of Webster's Dictionary:

2 a: One thickness, course, or fold, laid or lying over or under another.

Then yes, you can layer to a certain point. For example, you can add multiple layers of layerable waxes until the limit to how much a given surface of an automotive paint can hold before each additional application is simply removed, or replaces a previously applied layer.

You cannot layer to the point of developing a measurable film-build, and this is key; without negatively affecting, or diminishing to some degree, the shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color etc. of the finish

This is especially true if the product you're applying is not clear (in and of itself) to start with. If your definition of the word "layer" follows that of definition used by some on the Internet,

Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)

Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.

Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.

10) Meguiar’s (mirror glaze) final inspection #34

Typically you don't want to introduce any other chemical or product to a freshly waxed surface until a window of time between 12 and 24 hours has passed so the wax/paint protectant can fully set-up.

NXT Tech Wax Cure Time

Originally posted by mis3
I am aware of the 12 hour cure time of the NXT tech wax.

My question is by cure time, does it mean I have to keep the car in a closed garage? I am sure I should not drive it if it's raining, how about driving the car is a nice, sunny day? Will the NXT cured during driving?

The idea behind waiting to apply a second coating is to allow a window of time to pass, to insure that all of the polymers have fully set-up. Anytime you introduce water or other liquids to the surface before the polymers have fully set-up you risk disrupting the polymers.

Some people cannot wait, or do not want to wait this long before applying a second coat, I know many times I don't have the luxury of time to wait until the next day to apply a second coat. If you are in this position, then it's completely fine to apply a second coat sooner. The 12 hour window of time is just a best case scenario for those people that want the maximum results possible. It's like giving the benefit of doubt to the process.

After applying the Tech Wax to your car's finish, it's perfectly fine to drive again in sunny weather. It's liquids you want to avoid for the first 12 hours for best possible results. I’ve been told that this is true of most paint protection products.

Another thing I notice once in a while at the clinic is for someone who has just applied Tech Wax, or any wax is to continually wipe the surface, you know, they have already removed the wax but they continue to keep wiping and polishing on the finish. This disrupts the polymer coating on the surface. Instead, wipe off the excess and leave it alone. When you continue to wipe the surface before the polymers have fully set-up, you are moving the polymer coating around, potentially moving it off the finish and onto you polishing cloth.

Last year, I was told by a Meguiar’s tech to use all of these products as the glaze will polish, the wax will protect and the paint protector will give anti static for brake dust and anti water spot. Recently a Meguiar's’s tech asked me why I use both NXT wax then cover it with Paint Protector as they are both wax, this brought me to write this letter, I need proper information to care for my car not just to get me to buy product.

Well you've come to the right place to get your questions answered, one thing about a public forum... there's no place to hide.


[quote]My questions are as follows:

1) are these products abrasive?[quote]
All the abrasives Meguiar's uses in their compounds, paint cleaners, cleaner/polishes and cleaner/waxes are diminishing abrasives. Meguiar's PIONEERED the use of diminishing abrasives with their first wood furniture cleaners back in 1902, everyone since then has been playing follow the leader.

Correctly used, our product will not scratch the finish but will remove the defect and leave the finish smooth and clear.

2) when I add a second or third layer, am I removing the previous layer?

Depends on the product. Other factors include application material, application process and the amount of passion or in other words your aggressiveness level when applying subsequent applications. Perhaps ask this as a dedicated question and list the product in question specifically.

3) when I apply the next product, am I removing the previous product?

See the above answer and request.

4) How long should I wait between layers?

As mentioned previously, you cannot layer paint cleaners or polishes, when it comes to waxes, see the above somewhere as I think I covered this already. (Starting to see the benefit to asking your questions in small chunks?)

5) Is the Glaze #5 abrasive? It feels as if it is removing everything

No, M05 New Car Glaze is non-abrasive, however...

How are you applying it?

Water can be abrasive, it carved out the Grand Canyon

6) I was told that the detailer will remove the wax and the Final Inspection will not Is this true?

Be more specific, what do you mean, the detailer? Is this a person? Is this M66 Quick Detailer the strong Cleaner/Wax in the Professional Line? Or is this the Quik Detailer mist and wipe product in the Consumer Line?

7) what detail spray should I use to remove bird dropping and water spots when arriving to a show?

Any of Meguiar's quick detailer/mist and wipe products for automotive use will work fine.

8) I was told to use the Paint protector over the wax to repel dust and eliminate future water spots is this what I should do?

Medallion Premium Paint Protectant utilized Cationic Bondy System that was based upon positive molecules in the formula electro/chemically bonding to the negative molecules that make up automotive paint finishes. Some people read into this that it means it will remove the negative static charge naturally present in the paint and turn the surface anti-static. As far as I know, this is either not true, or any anti-static benefit produced would be minimal and short lived. I would have to ask one of our chemist to confirm the above answer so please allow me some elbow room until I check. Just to note, this product has been discontinued.

9) Is there a difference whether I apply and remove by hand or low speed 4" electric polisher ?

Yes, if you remove by hand you'll be using your hand, and if you use a machine, you'll be using a machine, that is a big difference.



Just kidding, couldn't resist...

Personally, I've experienced higher gloss and less chance of streaking when both applying LSP, Last Step Products, i.e. waxes and paint protectants, and removing them using a machine.

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary

Hope this helps...

[Mike Phillips]

Moved from the Break Room to Detailing 101

[Mike Phillips]

Re: is this the correct order & is there any overkill?

Originally posted by echoguy
Every January I do the following to my 2002 corvette, this is a show car that has won many awards.I am looking for a deep shine with enough layers to protect from chips

No such wax exists. No matter what you read on any other forum or what someone tries to tell you in the real world, it isn't true. If someone has told you this, or if you have read this about some product on another forum, remember who this person is, or this forum member and question everything they ever say or post.

and I am also looking for brake dust repelling feature of an anti-static.

Is this to keep brake dust off your car's paint? Or off your wheels?

Either way, as far as I know there is no true/functional anti-static wax for paint. The purpose of a car wax, or paint protectant by any other name, (some companies call their paint protectant a polish which really confuses people out of the loop for that companies product line), is to,

A) Create a sacrificial barrier coating to protect the paint
B) To add beauty


Usually in the above order.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: is this the correct order & is there any overkill?

Originally posted by echoguy
Last year, I was told by a Meguiar’s tech to use all of these products as the glaze will polish, the wax will protect and the paint protector will give anti static for brake dust and anti water spot.

If a bona-fide Meguiar's employee told you this, then they were wrong and for this we apologize as the above is not true.

My guess is it was someone that works for someone that sells Meguiar's, such as a sales clerk or detailer, or booth host etc. and not actually a person getting a check from Meguiar's as we train all of our employees on the 5-Step Paint Care Cycle.

Recently a Meguiar's’s tech asked me why I use both NXT wax then cover it with Paint Protector as they are both wax, this brought me to write this letter, I need proper information to care for my car not just to get me to buy product.

Now this sounds like the kind of question a trained employee would ask you and we're glad you found your way to our forum to clarify all the misinformation you have received and have been operating under.

In a nut shell, you want to...

1) Wash the car.
2) Clay the car if necessary.
3) Clean - Remove below surface defects.
4) Polish the paint with a pure polish - optional.
5) Apply 1-2 coats of wax, 3 at the most in any one detailing session.

After the second or third coat it's time to step away from the car and admire the results.