Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

[edemirci]

Hello,

I am planning on replacing my Meguiars Porter Cable 7338 (yes, the original from the late 90's) with an MT300 (Hopefully I don't get a defective one, cross the fingers!!)

There are two cars I need to work on:

1. A mildly neglected Pontiac Torrent (swirls, and some cloudy clear coat, but it's still intact).

2. I recently purchased an Infiniti G37s Moonlight White. The paint is in pretty good condition. There are some very minor scuffs (not deep at all) in some places. It's difficult to see if there are swirls, but I can see them. I really love the pearl look in the paint (not different color, but the pearl metallic if that makes sense, not sure what the jargon is). I want to bring this out much more if possible.

The questions are:

1. I understand the concept of using the least aggressive product to get the job done, and doing tests: The Microfiber Correction System and the Ultimate System both have 'compound', 'polish' and 'wax'. I also understand the Ultimate system would be used with traditional foam vs microfiber for the DA Correction System. I'm looking to have more 'permanent' correction than hiding (I'm not suggesting that either product hides anything instead of permanent fix, I'm just saying what I'm looking for). I'm just not sure which system I should pick up, what do you recommend?

2. To start each car, I plan on two bucket wash, use Iron X, Clay, then do number 1. But while doing number 1, between each component, is it ok to use Isopropyl Alcohol to 'clean' the paint before next product? If so, what is the recommend dilution if any?

3. I know this is going to sound really stupid, but I will purchase an air compressor if using air provides much better cleaning of a pad (microfiber or foam) than using the brush. Please give your honest opinions of using both methods to clean a pad.

Thank you so much in advance for helping me out.

[The Guz]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

The MT300 is a definite upgrade to a PC style DA. It works great with the new thin foam discs as well as the microfiber pads.

1. I understand the concept of using the least aggressive product to get the job done, and doing tests: The Microfiber Correction System and the Ultimate System both have 'compound', 'polish' and 'wax'. I also understand the Ultimate system would be used with traditional foam vs microfiber for the DA Correction System. I'm looking to have more 'permanent' correction than hiding (I'm not suggesting that either product hides anything instead of permanent fix, I'm just saying what I'm looking for). I'm just not sure which system I should pick up, what do you recommend?

You are going to get a lot of recommendations. But first you have the right idea. You want to begin with a test spot with the least aggressive combination. The two systems are quite different but achieve the same results. Both remove defects and do not hide defects.

For both cars, start with M205 on a polishing pad and let the paint tell you what it wants. If you need more correction then move up to a compound and cutting pad.

Infiniti paint has been said to be on the soft side. Pontiac paint is more on the medium side of things. I own a Pontiac as does my brother so I am familiar with Pontiac paint. Hopefully the paint on the Torrent is not starting to suffer from clear coat failure based on your description of cloudy paint. It could be oxidation. Hard to tell without seeing a photo.

What I would recommend is picking up M205 for a finishing polish. It's a very versatile product. For both cars, go with a test spot using a polishing pad and M205. Make your decision based on that test spot. If you are satisfied with those results then proceed on and then protect the paint with your choice of wax or sealant. If you need more correction then I would recommend ultimate compound on a cutting pad and then proceed with M205 on a polishing pad or finishing pad depending on how the paint responds to compounding. You can then protect with your choice of wax or sealant.

Correcting white paint is a challenge on it's own. You are going to have to play with angles quite a bit to see how the light reflects off the paint. With white I would recommend having one light source and having the room a bit darker. That will allow you to see the defects better.

You will have to determine what choice in protection you want. A carnauba wax or a paint sealant. A sealant will typically last longer. Ultimate Wax is a sealant.

If you choose to go with the microfiber system, just be aware that you will more than likely need a polishing step as marring could occur on softer paints due to a microfiber pad being more aggressive than a foam pad. The new thin Meguiar's foam discs have excellent correction ability and will finish better than microfiber pads.

In summary I would recommend Gold Class Car Shampoo, Clay kit, Ultimate Compound, M205 and ultimate wax. Maintain with Ultimate Quik Wax or invest in the gallon version which is D156 in the detailer line.

2. To start each car, I plan on two bucket wash, use Iron X, Clay, then do number 1. But while doing number 1, between each component, is it ok to use Isopropyl Alcohol to 'clean' the paint before next product? If so, what is the recommend dilution if any?

I am going to refer you to the Aggressive wash method explained by Mike Phillips. It will save you time. It does involve a foam gun and a clay alternative. You could get away without the foam gun and the clay alternative. It will just take longer with traditional clay due to the kneading.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/86146-aggressive-approach-washing-car.html

You do not need to use IPA between each step. An IPA wipe is only critical if you were applying a coating as the form of protection. Not really needed with a wax or sealant as your last step. I refer you to this article by Mike Phillips as well.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/31186-miscible-immiscible-wax-paint-sealant-bonding.html

3. I know this is going to sound really stupid, but I will purchase an air compressor if using air provides much better cleaning of a pad (microfiber or foam) than using the brush. Please give your honest opinions of using both methods to clean a pad.

An air compressor works best to clean out microfiber pads but a pad brush and cleaning on the fly works well just like if using foam pads. Again I refer you to a well written article

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions/81585-tip-clean-your-pads-often.html

[edemirci]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

Hey Guz,

Thanks for the recommendation. The pontiac doesn't appear to be suffering from clearcoat failure, it's just cloudy. It was garaged about half its life. (we live in Atlanta).

I agree that certain shades of white are difficult to see imperfections. Last night I went into the garage while dark, and turned on my LED flashlight (it's kind of an ice blue) along with a more warm flashlight (still led) so I could use different lights and angles to spot things. I have to say, overall the paint looks mostly scratch free (not totally). There are a couple of very minor (BARELY fail nail test) and two others that i can see with light but can't fail nail test. Look like some kind of etching hologram.
I found that shining the flashlight very close and square to the paint showed the gloss factor, where pulling it back significantly was able to show the clarity of the paint, while angling it perpendicular with some distance from where i was looking was able to show defects. There are barely any swirls that I can see. The Infiniti appears to have been cared for, but appears to have been neglected in this last year of its life. It should be pretty easy to shine up.

As far as your articles, believe it or not, the last two I had come across in the last couple weeks while reading A LOT!! Work Clean Mike Phillips says! Definitely would rather take my time and use the clay instead of aggressive approach. Just how I feel.

I really appreciate your feedback Guz.



Couple of questions: (I'd like anyone who decides to pitch in to explain why they recommend one system over another).

1. Why do you recommend Ultimate system (granted if i had to go to it after M205) over the DA Microfiber System?

2. No one, not even Mike talks about compressed air on a foam pad. Is it safe, is it recommended? I don't want to damage the cellular components of the foam if it may end up not working the way it was designed.

[The Guz]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

The microfiber correction system was designed for production work and originally only included the compound and finish wax. In a production world, vehicles need to be pumped out quick. Later on Meguiar's introduced a polish into the system for those that wanted to stay within the microfiber system from start to finish.

Being as the paint is typically soft on Infiniti's and now finding out that the paint seems to be in good shape, there is no need to go to the microfiber cutting pads. Microfiber cutting pads cut fast and are more aggressive than foam. That equals to more paint being removed. If the paint was trashed then the microfiber pads come in handy. Microfiber cutting pads on softer paints can leave marring behind because of the aggressive correction. I have experienced marring even when using the microfiber polish and the microfiber finishing pad on softer paint.

GM paint on the other hand has been known to be on the hard side. Sometimes foam does not "cut it", pun intended. Microfiber cutting pads will cut through harder paints much easier. On harder paints, microfiber cutting pads can finish LSP (last step product = protection) ready. Pontiac paint seems to be right in the middle.

In saying this, I have foam pads and microfiber pads because one never knows what is going to be needed. Some paints are more stubborn than others.

It's really hard for someone to say get this and use this. But in reality the test spot it the most important thing in letting one know what it will require to correct the paint. Not all paint is the same.

To answer your second question, compressed air is fine on foam pads. You will not damage anything. It will blow out spent product and paint residue.

[edemirci]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

Hey Guz,

I understand now. M205 is an aggressive type polish and I agree starting there is a good idea. Are you absolutely sure that compressed air on foam is ok? I"m thinking of maybe just going out and buying a pad washer, not sure.

M205 I thought was designed for Rotary Buffers. You can use this with MT300 and Burgundy foam cutting disc / Yellow polishing disc? Actually I just answered my own question: http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...kl27LO8h1VU.97

So lets break it down:

You suggest purchasing M205 and Ultimate compound in case I need it. If M205 works, is there an after step for more polish, or that should bring me to LSP (assuming it's done right). M205 is a SMAT product correct? So if I was to do a test spot, maybe 4 passes, 2 medium, 2 light? what speed do I use?

[The Guz]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

M205 is a finishing polish that contains abrasives. Not an aggressive type polish. It's used to remove light to moderate defects as well as refining the finish after compounding and imparting gloss onto the paint.

I have had no issues blowing foam pads with compressed air. No pad has exploded or deteriorated by doing so. If you don't feel comfortable doing it then get a pad conditioning brush to brush out the foam pad and clean it on the fly.

M205 can be used with a DA. There are so many people using it on a DA. Check it out the link and see the product benefits section

http://www.meguiars.com/en/professional/products/m20532-ultra-finishing-polish-32oz/#Cejd0IDGPEzVlzp4.97

If M205 works then you can use whatever protection you choose to use.

You are correct M205 is SMAT. On the MT300 speed 5 with 4-5 passes should suffice for the test spot. You do not need to put a lot of down pressure with the MT300. The weight of the machine is all that you really need. Let the machine do the work.

[The Guz]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

Just saw this. This may help you out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp2R7OgTu54

[drumdan]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

I really enjoy the Ultimate line of products.

The last three details I did, I used Ultimate Compound on microfiber cutting pads, and M205 on a microfiber finishing pad. The machine I was using was the Porter Cable 7424 - 1st gen, not the XP.

I find myself prefering Ultimate Compound to even D300 on microfiber! It stays wet, cuts hard, and no dust.

My point is that you would probably be fine with the Ultimate line, just order a set of microfiber pads along with the foam just in case you might need them.

[Top Gear]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

I prefer DAMF, which gives a deeper, wetter result without the harsh and shallow white gloss of Ultimate and other lines. I'll never use foam again - it's too weak, wastes time and liquid product, is harder to clean and dry, and wears out too fast. A quick brush with a pad brush is all that's needed to refresh an MF pad during passes. As for cut, I can see almost no difference between D300 and UC/M105, so I moved to M101 for those purposes, then follow with DAMF.

[edemirci]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

Hey Guz
Thank you for the video post. It has the speed settings right in the video! I think I'm ready to purchase my set. Only other couple of questions I Have for you is:

1. Should quick detailer/final inspection be very lightly misted onto the pad for priming for first use, and after cleaning the pad off? I've never used the MT300, can you elaborate on the digital torque control? Does it really continue to spin despite putting moderate pressure, unlike my current very first generation 7336 polisher? I was also thinking of picking up a 3inch disc and getting 3inch pads for other spots that 5 inch is simply too marge to manage.

Drumdan and Top Gear, Thank you for your feedback. I believe I'm going to go with Ultimate line first. I agree that MF may cut faster, but that's not the goal here. I have all the time I need during vacation, and this is a therapeutic hobby I used to do that I'm very happy I'm getting back into. Do any of you have a pad washer?

[The Guz]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

I would suggest listening to Kevin Brown on the proper method to prime the pad with Meguiar's products. What he states in another of Larry's videos is that Kevin cleans the pad on the fly prior to putting the pad to the paint once it is primed. No need to use detail spray to prime the pad.

The MT300 is still a DA. So it will stop like any DA if not held in the right position. The digital torque has enough power to keep the pad spinning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUdnj4CVFmQ

To answer your question about a pad washer, no I don't have one or own one.

[drumdan]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

No problem!

No pad washer here, I do them by hand.

I do plenty of cutting with Ultimate Compound and foam pads. I typically use the green light cut from chemical guys, and follow with the blue and Ultimate Polish.

[edemirci]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

I took off tomorrow to start on the Infiniti, and found tonight, through some reading, that there have been many nightmares dealing with Nissan's ridiculous 'scratch shield' layer. I'm almost afraid to even touch the car now as I do NOT want to go through the nightmares that others have gone through.

It's a 2012, from Florida... It's Moonlight white. Can anyone provide any experience with this tech fail that nissan put forth in the industry? There's no evidence one way or the other if I do or do not have the scratch shield. The sticker is not under my hood, but that doesn't mean it wasn't removed. I'm really upset, I really don't know what to do now. I feel like I just wasted a few hundred dollars.

[The Guz]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

Test spot with a polish and a polishing pad. Go from there.

[edemirci]

Re: Consumer system vs Professional System (and other things)

Hey Guz,

You're right, test spot is a necessity, not an option. Though, there's no telling if i'll run into it later.

I know I'm not using a rotary so the heat buildup should not be significant. nonetheless, i will do my best and that's all that I can do.

Will post later. I don't have a camera work taking pictures with, so I will not be posting pics. Though, I can sure try and see what happens.