buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

[azi90]

Hi,
Past week, i used DA polisher to buff out by 5 year old genesis coupe. Car had Moderate swirl marks.


I used GG's 6 inc polisher with hex orange pad with ultimate compound & than light blue polish pad with CG v38.


In the end when i looked at the car in sun i see some new buffer trails (holograms) *circled red in picture link attached. There is more of them but cant see them in picture due to lightning*


I wanted to know what can i used to remove those marks? preferable a one step solution as i already did two step on whole car and doing it again will be Pain in the b**t(excluding wax)


Thanks


LINK to Picture : https://s17.postimg.org/o6w1o6bkv/20...6_15_32_02.jpg

[Top Gear]

Re: Saturday Class Sign Up - September 17th, 2016

Kim - ZSY900

[azi90]

Re: Saturday Class Sign Up - September 17th, 2016

Kim - ZSY900

Top gear,

So CG V38 with WHITE pad (light-medium) cutting should do it? or should i use lighter pad light blue (light polish/finishing)

What do you suggest?

P.s even if you have any other product that you think will work better as one step to fix this let me know

[Top Gear]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

^^^ Something weird with this thread order, and I didn't say "Kim - ZSY900" ??

Anyway, I don't use GG stuff, but Meguiar's. If those are foam pads, it is impossible that you are creating buffer trails on the super-hard Genny paint. If a piece of grit gets in there it will make some scratches, though. Hard to say based on the small pic, but I'd go back with the compound step in that area and then carefully inspect in the Sun or with a bright light, then re-polish and re-wax. One-step solutions are only for times when you don't have an underlying problem like that to solve.

In the big picture though, how does the car look now that you've gone over it with compound and polish?? Should look stunning

[azi90]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

^^^ Something weird with this thread order, and I didn't say "Kim - ZSY900" ??

Anyway, I don't use GG stuff, but Meguiar's. If those are foam pads, it is impossible that you are creating buffer trails on the super-hard Genny paint. If a piece of grit gets in there it will make some scratches, though. Hard to say based on the small pic, but I'd go back with the compound step in that area and then carefully inspect in the Sun or with a bright light, then re-polish and re-wax. One-step solutions are only for times when you don't have an underlying problem like that to solve.

In the big picture though, how does the car look now that you've gone over it with compound and polish?? Should look stunning

I know, even the date of your post is august 26? lol how did you go in past bro? :P

And yeah man one side that did turn out good looks stunning

But one side where there is hologram like marks, its not just one panel but the whole side .... and i cant imagine doing whole 2 step process all over again since it took me 8-10 hours last time.

[Top Gear]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

The whole side? Maybe someone else created them and you've only polished off a glaze or sealant or something?

[drumdan]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

How long are you working the v38? The blue hex pad should take care of any marring, and even light toweling marks. I'd pawn off that v38, and pick up some Ultimate Polish. Ultimate Polish on the blue hex is a very versatile, potent combination. I'm constantly impressed with how it cleandls up the paint, and the gloss it leaves behind.

Also, if you have a green pad, I'd use that with the Ultimate Compound. I always get more cut from the green than the orange and yellow pads. Weird, I know but I learned this on the job, on multiple tests on many types of paints. Kind of left me scratching my head.

[azi90]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

How long are you working the v38? The blue hex pad should take care of any marring, and even light toweling marks. I'd pawn off that v38, and pick up some Ultimate Polish. Ultimate Polish on the blue hex is a very versatile, potent combination. I'm constantly impressed with how it cleandls up the paint, and the gloss it leaves behind.

Also, if you have a green pad, I'd use that with the Ultimate Compound. I always get more cut from the green than the orange and yellow pads. Weird, I know but I learned this on the job, on multiple tests on many types of paints. Kind of left me scratching my head.

with V38 i go about 5 section passes not too fast but not too slow either.


I got to work the other half of the car this weekend and results are heart breaking here are the new pictures.



See the scratches? i dont understand what i am doing wrong? am i not removing the swirls properly in the first place or am i missing a polishing step? My towels and pads are all clean ...
again my process is as follows

VSS with orange pad
V38 with blue pad
Megs black paste wax on black pad

@TopGear

Is genny paint really soft to work on?

[Top Gear]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

No, man, that paint is so diamond-hard it will make hard paint guys cry trying to correct it. The Koreans spray a very durable paint, and all Genesis cars, at least 10-12s, maybe all, were fully assembled in Korea, so there is little or no variation in techniques as their might be in other cars assembled in different plants across many countries under different series (like GM or Ford cars for example). Honestly, I think you are barely scratching the surface, so to speak, merely uncovering damage done by some hack detailer who must have worked on the car before you bought it, probably to dress it up for sale. The car may have also been repainted or patched up, and if done correctly, the new paint would be just as hard, if not harder, and twice as thick, if not three times. I don't know the pads you're using, but again, if they are spongy foam it is literally impossible for you to be creating those effects on that paint.

They look like a very large pad rotary action buffer trails. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like in the two small pics you've posted (the trunk shot is pretty clear). They are very difficult to photograph, and the important thing to remember is they are extremely faint - not "damage" in a literal sense, but deeper than typical swirls. If they seem to dance around as holograms when you move your head looking at them, that's another clue that they are rotary buffer trails. If you had grains of sand in your DA pads and way-way overworked the liquid you still wouldn't get scratches like that, but you'd find small pigtail scratches instead, because the DA is vibrating in eccentric patterns, while a large rotary spins like a wheel making big circles. When rotary work is done wrong it essentially "burns" or scuffs the clear coat with micron-thin scratches, or buffer trails (then they coat the car with polish and you don't see them until it weathers off). This is why trustworthy and talented "pro" detailers, even at highly rated body shops, are extremely hard to find and expensive, because most of them are total lazy hacky hackersons.

The rotary trails and patterns follow the large spinning pad as well as the motion of the operator's arm movements, creating 3D-looking effects. The hood should look particularly bad with holograms, because the hacks lean over and put their body weight across the hood, compounding their bad technique, and also, your eyes will be higher off the paint so you can see larger holographic patterns in full sunlight or other bright light. Another trick is to wait until you have a clear sunset and park the car sideways against the light, such that your shadow is projected on the car, then look around while moving. Another is to get a bright LED light and move it across the paint while moving your head, all in otherwise total darkness. Watch them dance

Anyway, if I'm right, the work you are putting in with foam pads is doing almost nothing at all, nothing in terms of cutting, and nothing in terms of scratching and scuffing, except to break down and remove the previous polishing or glazing that covered up hack-tastic rotary buffer trails.

How do you fix it? Well, it's going to take some work and patience. Because the paint is so hard, you simply have to use MF pads, like Meguiar's DAMF. You are completely and totally wasting your time if you don't get those. Also, you'll need a compound that will actually cut. That Chemical Guys VSS is just a mild swirl remover, like Meguiar's ScratchX or SwirlX, and because it's a medium to light strength compound, is doing nothing to abrade the hard surface, again, except to remove or break down what is hiding the rotary buffer trails. Please get your hands on AT LEAST the Meguiar's M105/Ultimate Compound, but really, even UC/M105 is just not strong enough and you will be very frustrated trying to get any cut. You need M101, or if the cost is prohibitive, M100.

So, M101 on DAMF pads is a minimum level of aggression, and even that will have its limits on the hard paint. At that point, for areas that do not respond to MF/M101, you will have to wet-sand, which is a whole other skill and set of challenges. However, I think the MF/M101 combo with some aggressive action on your part and many passes, will cut the trails for the most part. That's when you'll realize how little "damage" a DA can actually do, and how much work it takes to fix minutes of hacky rotary work done by someone else - a "pro" at that.

If you don't want to do all that work right away, then you can temporarily cover them up the same way the rotary guy did, by applying a healthy amount of polish in several passes (like Ultimate Polish/M205), then waxing with a polish-wax (like UW or GC or BW), not a cleaner-wax (like WW, D301, A1214, etc). You could do that while you wait on your M101 and DAMF pads to come it, or do the polish trick and also test various new techniques in small areas with M101/MF. I noticed when I moved to this combo, I could actually back off the aggression and follow typical video examples, because I was using a pad/liquid matching the paint hardness.

Hope all that helps

[azi90]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

No, man, that paint is so diamond-hard it will make hard paint guys cry trying to correct it. The Koreans spray a very durable paint, and all Genesis cars, at least 10-12s, maybe all, were fully assembled in Korea, so there is little or no variation in techniques as their might be in other cars assembled in different plants across many countries under different series (like GM or Ford cars for example). Honestly, I think you are barely scratching the surface, so to speak, merely uncovering damage done by some hack detailer who must have worked on the car before you bought it, probably to dress it up for sale. The car may have also been repainted or patched up, and if done correctly, the new paint would be just as hard, if not harder, and twice as thick, if not three times. I don't know the pads you're using, but again, if they are spongy foam it is literally impossible for you to be creating those effects on that paint.

They look like a very large pad rotary action buffer trails. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like in the two small pics you've posted (the trunk shot is pretty clear). They are very difficult to photograph, and the important thing to remember is they are extremely faint - not "damage" in a literal sense, but deeper than typical swirls. If they seem to dance around as holograms when you move your head looking at them, that's another clue that they are rotary buffer trails. If you had grains of sand in your DA pads and way-way overworked the liquid you still wouldn't get scratches like that, but you'd find small pigtail scratches instead, because the DA is vibrating in eccentric patterns, while a large rotary spins like a wheel making big circles. When rotary work is done wrong it essentially "burns" or scuffs the clear coat with micron-thin scratches, or buffer trails (then they coat the car with polish and you don't see them until it weathers off). This is why trustworthy and talented "pro" detailers, even at highly rated body shops, are extremely hard to find and expensive, because most of them are total lazy hacky hackersons.

The rotary trails and patterns follow the large spinning pad as well as the motion of the operator's arm movements, creating 3D-looking effects. The hood should look particularly bad with holograms, because the hacks lean over and put their body weight across the hood, compounding their bad technique, and also, your eyes will be higher off the paint so you can see larger holographic patterns in full sunlight or other bright light. Another trick is to wait until you have a clear sunset and park the car sideways against the light, such that your shadow is projected on the car, then look around while moving. Another is to get a bright LED light and move it across the paint while moving your head, all in otherwise total darkness. Watch them dance

Anyway, if I'm right, the work you are putting in with foam pads is doing almost nothing at all, nothing in terms of cutting, and nothing in terms of scratching and scuffing, except to break down and remove the previous polishing or glazing that covered up hack-tastic rotary buffer trails.

How do you fix it? Well, it's going to take some work and patience. Because the paint is so hard, you simply have to use MF pads, like Meguiar's DAMF. You are completely and totally wasting your time if you don't get those. Also, you'll need a compound that will actually cut. That Chemical Guys VSS is just a mild swirl remover, like Meguiar's ScratchX or SwirlX, and because it's a medium to light strength compound, is doing nothing to abrade the hard surface, again, except to remove or break down what is hiding the rotary buffer trails. Please get your hands on AT LEAST the Meguiar's M105/Ultimate Compound, but really, even UC/M105 is just not strong enough and you will be very frustrated trying to get any cut. You need M101, or if the cost is prohibitive, M100.

So, M101 on DAMF pads is a minimum level of aggression, and even that will have its limits on the hard paint. At that point, for areas that do not respond to MF/M101, you will have to wet-sand, which is a whole other skill and set of challenges. However, I think the MF/M101 combo with some aggressive action on your part and many passes, will cut the trails for the most part. That's when you'll realize how little "damage" a DA can actually do, and how much work it takes to fix minutes of hacky rotary work done by someone else - a "pro" at that.

If you don't want to do all that work right away, then you can temporarily cover them up the same way the rotary guy did, by applying a healthy amount of polish in several passes (like Ultimate Polish/M205), then waxing with a polish-wax (like UW or GC or BW), not a cleaner-wax (like WW, D301, A1214, etc). You could do that while you wait on your M101 and DAMF pads to come it, or do the polish trick and also test various new techniques in small areas with M101/MF. I noticed when I moved to this combo, I could actually back off the aggression and follow typical video examples, because I was using a pad/liquid matching the paint hardness.

Hope all that helps

Thanks for your reply TopGear.

I am sure the car has never been polished before so these cant be rotary buffer trails. Could it be that these are same swirl marks that i started with but more finer now after working on them, and may need some more work to disappear?

Also when you say "If they seem to dance around as holograms when you move your head looking at them that's another clue that they are rotary buffer trails." do you have a video or something so i can refer exactly how the rotary buffer trails should look like? when i move looking at marks they dont seem to look any different than what it looks like in pictures ( just different angle and lightning etc)

[Top Gear]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

Well, just going on what you said, etc. If you're not the original owner, you can't be sure what may have been done. Anyway, those aren't swirls, either, as those look like circular spiderwebs and will be easier to reduce, hide, or remove. They aren't DA holograms or pigtails, not with foam and VSS on a 6-inch pad, either. They could have been there from the original dealer prep, you see. Many dealers have hacks working for them, and since these cars were shipped from Korea and trucked to the dealers, they can be imperfect. Mine was damaged in transport and the dealer did some questionable work to "fix" it.

I think I linked to some hologram pictures above or in another thread. They're easy to find on Google, but hard to capture yourself. It takes full Sun to capture them, and they look irregular, almost seeming to move or transform when you move your point of view. They're kinda beautiful in their own way, but just wrong for detailing. They should be easy to see with no polish or wax, but as soon as you do polish and wax, they can be hidden (something that fools us all into thinking we've corrected things we haven't actually corrected). That you are still seeing them after a polish and wax means they are serious enough to not have been done by you in your recent DA work, unless you're just trying to "stump the chumps" or something

[azi90]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

Well, just going on what you said, etc. If you're not the original owner, you can't be sure what may have been done. Anyway, those aren't swirls, either, as those look like circular spiderwebs and will be easier to reduce, hide, or remove. They aren't DA holograms or pigtails, not with foam and VSS on a 6-inch pad, either. They could have been there from the original dealer prep, you see. Many dealers have hacks working for them, and since these cars were shipped from Korea and trucked to the dealers, they can be imperfect. Mine was damaged in transport and the dealer did some questionable work to "fix" it.

I think I linked to some hologram pictures above or in another thread. They're easy to find on Google, but hard to capture yourself. It takes full Sun to capture them, and they look irregular, almost seeming to move or transform when you move your point of view. They're kinda beautiful in their own way, but just wrong for detailing. They should be easy to see with no polish or wax, but as soon as you do polish and wax, they can be hidden (something that fools us all into thinking we've corrected things we haven't actually corrected). That you are still seeing them after a polish and wax means they are serious enough to not have been done by you in your recent DA work, unless you're just trying to "stump the chumps" or something

TopGear, is this fixable though?

[Top Gear]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

Yes, as I've explained above. It won't be easy, but it is doable.

[MicrofiberMan]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

No, man, that paint is so diamond-hard it will make hard paint guys cry trying to correct it. The Koreans spray a very durable paint, and all Genesis cars, at least 10-12s, maybe all, were fully assembled in Korea, so there is little or no variation in techniques as their might be in other cars assembled in different plants across many countries under different series (like GM or Ford cars for example). Honestly, I think you are barely scratching the surface, so to speak, merely uncovering damage done by some hack detailer who must have worked on the car before you bought it, probably to dress it up for sale. The car may have also been repainted or patched up, and if done correctly, the new paint would be just as hard, if not harder, and twice as thick, if not three times. I don't know the pads you're using, but again, if they are spongy foam it is literally impossible for you to be creating those effects on that paint.

They look like a very large pad rotary action buffer trails. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like in the two small pics you've posted (the trunk shot is pretty clear). They are very difficult to photograph, and the important thing to remember is they are extremely faint - not "damage" in a literal sense, but deeper than typical swirls. If they seem to dance around as holograms when you move your head looking at them, that's another clue that they are rotary buffer trails. If you had grains of sand in your DA pads and way-way overworked the liquid you still wouldn't get scratches like that, but you'd find small pigtail scratches instead, because the DA is vibrating in eccentric patterns, while a large rotary spins like a wheel making big circles. When rotary work is done wrong it essentially "burns" or scuffs the clear coat with micron-thin scratches, or buffer trails (then they coat the car with polish and you don't see them until it weathers off). This is why trustworthy and talented "pro" detailers, even at highly rated body shops, are extremely hard to find and expensive, because most of them are total lazy hacky hackersons.

The rotary trails and patterns follow the large spinning pad as well as the motion of the operator's arm movements, creating 3D-looking effects. The hood should look particularly bad with holograms, because the hacks lean over and put their body weight across the hood, compounding their bad technique, and also, your eyes will be higher off the paint so you can see larger holographic patterns in full sunlight or other bright light. Another trick is to wait until you have a clear sunset and park the car sideways against the light, such that your shadow is projected on the car, then look around while moving. Another is to get a bright LED light and move it across the paint while moving your head, all in otherwise total darkness. Watch them dance

Anyway, if I'm right, the work you are putting in with foam pads is doing almost nothing at all, nothing in terms of cutting, and nothing in terms of scratching and scuffing, except to break down and remove the previous polishing or glazing that covered up hack-tastic rotary buffer trails.

How do you fix it? Well, it's going to take some work and patience. Because the paint is so hard, you simply have to use MF pads, like Meguiar's DAMF. You are completely and totally wasting your time if you don't get those. Also, you'll need a compound that will actually cut. That Chemical Guys VSS is just a mild swirl remover, like Meguiar's ScratchX or SwirlX, and because it's a medium to light strength compound, is doing nothing to abrade the hard surface, again, except to remove or break down what is hiding the rotary buffer trails. Please get your hands on AT LEAST the Meguiar's M105/Ultimate Compound, but really, even UC/M105 is just not strong enough and you will be very frustrated trying to get any cut. You need M101, or if the cost is prohibitive, M100.

So, M101 on DAMF pads is a minimum level of aggression, and even that will have its limits on the hard paint. At that point, for areas that do not respond to MF/M101, you will have to wet-sand, which is a whole other skill and set of challenges. However, I think the MF/M101 combo with some aggressive action on your part and many passes, will cut the trails for the most part. That's when you'll realize how little "damage" a DA can actually do, and how much work it takes to fix minutes of hacky rotary work done by someone else - a "pro" at that.

If you don't want to do all that work right away, then you can temporarily cover them up the same way the rotary guy did, by applying a healthy amount of polish in several passes (like Ultimate Polish/M205), then waxing with a polish-wax (like UW or GC or BW), not a cleaner-wax (like WW, D301, A1214, etc). You could do that while you wait on your M101 and DAMF pads to come it, or do the polish trick and also test various new techniques in small areas with M101/MF. I noticed when I moved to this combo, I could actually back off the aggression and follow typical video examples, because I was using a pad/liquid matching the paint hardness.

Hope all that helps

great advice as usual i thought m101 had the same cut as 105? you were saying hard paint typically chips easy right?

[Top Gear]

Re: buffer trails (holograms) after polishing

See your thread: http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?65043-ultra-cut-compound

No, as I've said before, M101 is much more aggressive than M105/UC when worked, not even close. M101 is the most aggressive product Meguiar's makes by far, a "full step" more aggressive than typical compounds, as I've described (a step being like the jump from a polish to a compound, or the jump from foam to MF pads). Only M100 comes close to M101, itself far more aggressive than M105/UC, D300, etc.

As for chips, I've seen it both ways, in terms of rock chips on the hood with softer and harder paint on my own cars. Still, hard factory paint seems to chip more easily, possibly because it's so incredibly thin as well as being so hard.