DAMF vs 105/205 Gloss

[Gamma]

Hey Guys

Just a quick question, I tried the DAMF system using my PC7424XP on one door on my black Nissan Navara and on the adjacent door I used 105/205 with the old red and yellow 2.0 pads. The DAMF side looks great and did an amazing amount of correction but the 105/205 side has noticeably better gloss. Is this to be expected or maybe I'm not doing something quite right? For reference I'm working with OEM paint and I'm using this video for guidance on the DAMF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhJYFLgIjhE , I'm relying on my old body-shop buffing skills for the 105/205 polishing.

Thanks

[Gamma]

Re: DAMF vs 105/205 Gloss

Using 105/205 on a rotary btw.

[The Guz]

Re: DAMF vs 105/205 Gloss

Foam tends to finish out better than microfiber.

[Top Gear]

Re: DAMF vs 105/205 Gloss

No, it's not the pads, but the liquids. On my paint, which is already glossy on its own, the silvery "Ultimate" look (found in a lot of Meg's products whether "Ultimate" or not) is way too much gloss. Not saying it doesn't look great, but the silver/white gives a harsher gloss. When I used Gold Class liquid wax it toned it down, but not much. The DAMF look is much more "blue" and wet-look subtle, almost like putting on polarized shades. The blacks are ultra-black, and the gloss is not silvery and white, but more liquid and dark. Partly it's got to be because the Detailer D30x liquids aren't white, but pink, yellow and purple, but it may be more complicated than that.

[DetailingObsession]

Re: DAMF vs 105/205 Gloss

I think 205 on a foam pad (DA or rotary) is almost always a winner. I'm a huge fan of the DAMF system too though. Different paints respond differently to different systems and techniques.

It's very common for rotary guys to have difficulty finishing, DAMF style, because the required technique is just about the opposite of how to finish with a rotary. DAMF usually likes very slow arm speed and moderate pressure to finish. Meguiar's recommends a particular speed too, I think 4800 OPM (check on that though). You also need to keep those MF pads really clean, as the fibers load up with residue very quickly. In the end, you should get excellent gloss from D301/D302 and M205.

Lately, I've been having great luck finishing with M205 on the DMF pad, except on curved panels where foam pads conform better than MF.

In the end though, just do whatever works best on that particular paint. If that's 205 on foam, then so be it!

[Michael Stoops]

Re: DAMF vs 105/205 Gloss

Here's what is most likely happening: you're working on a black Japanese vehicle, and the possibility for it to have fairly soft, touch sensitive paint is pretty high. The DA process involves that oscillating motion of the pad that can create a bit of DA haze on these softer paints. Couple that potential with the very aggressive nature of the microfiber discs and you run the very real risk of actually enhancing that DA haze. A rotary, on the other hand, can not create this sort of haze simply by the nature of the movement of the pad with that tool - it's a perfect circle. But that's also why a rotary, when used incorrectly, can and will create a rotary swirl mark (aka hologram). It doesn't really matter what liquids you use with either system, they by nature can and will create these two types of tool induced defects on various paint systems.

What we commonly see on really hard paint is that the DAMF System will finish out really, really nice even with the cutting step. Softer paints will haze, sometimes quite noticeably, and often you need to swap to a foam pad to finish out properly with a DA. And sometimes, the fastest way to finish out really nice is with very slow speed on a rotary.

So what it really comes down to is this: use the tool, pad and liquid that the paint prefers.

[Gamma]

Re: DAMF vs 105/205 Gloss

I love this forum. You guys gave me so much good info. Mike the paint on these Navaras are very soft and mar really easily. Going back and fort this is the combination that gave me the best gloss without any swirls or holograms on this particular clearcoat -

1- Red Foam Cutting Pad and M105 on the Rotary Polisher
2- Yellow Foam Polishing Pad and M205 on the Rotary Polisher
3- Black Foam Polishing Pad and M205 on the DA Polisher
3- Top with Ultimate Wax

It looks amazing. Thanks all for replys.

[Top Gear]

Re: DAMF vs 105/205 Gloss

...The DAMF side looks great and did an amazing amount of correction but the 105/205 side has noticeably better gloss. Is this to be expected or maybe I'm not doing something quite right?

...What we commonly see on really hard paint is that the DAMF System will finish out really, really nice even with the cutting step. Softer paints will haze, sometimes quite noticeably, and often you need to swap to a foam pad to finish out properly with a DA....So what it really comes down to is this: use the tool, pad and liquid that the paint prefers.

Well, it didn't sound like a question of haze or technique, but just that Gamma prefers the brighter gloss of Mirror Glaze over Detailer on his paint (while I prefer the wetter and bluer look of Detailer on my paint).

I'm sure if he exchanged the pads and liquids the result would be the same, with the M105/M205 on MF coming out much more silvery and high-key glossy than the D300/D302 on foam. I've done this with UC/UP on MF and found the pad did not matter at all in terms of the silvery gloss vs the toned down blue-black gloss. It was in the bottles

However, Gamma, if you really are talking about DA haze and not "silver vs blue", maybe you can explain a bit more? I've found very very faint haze at times with D300/MF, but it instantly disappears with either a second pass of D300 less aggressively, or a pass of D302, or even a bit aggressive pass of the D301 wax on the finishing pad. I've also surmised in some cases that haze was not in the clear, but was an optical illusion, that is, a lack of actually cutting and only abrading the polish layers - but then, my paint is diamond-hard. I've also gone to M101 for true cutting, but that's another topic. I also wonder if you're actually using D302 polish as well? That would explain a bit of what you're seeing, since you mentioned using M205.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: DAMF vs 105/205 Gloss

Mike the paint on these Navaras are very soft and mar really easily.

If that's the case, then the DAMF system is probably just not the best choice for that paint. As we said earlier, and as has been noticed by many, many detailers, is that really soft paints just don't like the DAMF system due to the aggressive nature of it. On super soft black paints we've seen it obliterate swirls but leave the looking more grey than black. In worst case scenarios, it's almost impossible to finish out these super touch sensitive black paint with the DAMF system and foam is almost mandatory. But even on a DA, by simple virtue of the way a DA tool moves the pad, the very worst of these paints still want to haze.

Well, it didn't sound like a question of haze or technique, but just that Gamma prefers the brighter gloss of Mirror Glaze over Detailer on his paint (while I prefer the wetter and bluer look of Detailer on my paint).

It's because of the haze created by the DAMF system on his very soft paint that he preferred the outcome with a rotary. This is really much less about the pads and liquids than it is about the tool and how the different motions of a DA and rotary cause the pad/liquid combo to interact with the paint.

I'm sure if he exchanged the pads and liquids the result would be the same, with the M105/M205 on MF coming out much more silvery and high-key glossy than the D300/D302 on foam. I've done this with UC/UP on MF and found the pad did not matter at all in terms of the silvery gloss vs the toned down blue-black gloss. It was in the bottles

Again, it really depends on the paint. On harder paints, you're spot on, no doubt about it. But on those crazy touch sensitive paints that make you want to just kill the car with fire and walk away from the burning ashes, microfiber will have a much greater tendency to haze, regardless the liquids used.

However, Gamma, if you really are talking about DA haze and not "silver vs blue", maybe you can explain a bit more? I've found very very faint haze at times with D300/MF, but it instantly disappears with either a second pass of D300 less aggressively, or a pass of D302, or even a bit aggressive pass of the D301 wax on the finishing pad. I've also surmised in some cases that haze was not in the clear, but was an optical illusion, that is, a lack of actually cutting and only abrading the polish layers - but then, my paint is diamond-hard. I've also gone to M101 for true cutting, but that's another topic. I also wonder if you're actually using D302 polish as well? That would explain a bit of what you're seeing, since you mentioned using M205.

Again, you're spot on about a very, very faint haze being easily dispatched with a second pass of D302 as that was designed to remedy that exact problem. The fact that your paint is so dang hard is sort of a blessing in disguise; most high end detailers I know prefer to work on super hard paints rather than super soft paints simply because they just go more aggressive to remove the defects without worrying about haze. D300/DMC5 not enough? Go for M100/DMC5. Still not enough? M101/DMX5 and a spritz of water. Now we're talking!!! And the finish looks great at the same time because the paint is so stinkin' hard (ie, it's NOT touch sensitive at all). But wait until the day you put polisher to those insane paints on the opposite end of the bell curve and you'll be going nuts trying to avoid the haze. When we conduct the NXT Training Programs, this is everyone's big concern (yes, literally everyone!) - how the heck do you finish out haze free on frustratingly soft paints? It usually requires some real outside the box thinking to make it happen.

[Top Gear]

Re: DAMF vs 105/205 Gloss

Oh, I think we were talking about different things. Not sure how a perception of a lesser gloss automatically means it was haze even with baby soft paint, or alternatively, that one step of D300/DAMF is somehow an apples-to-apples comparison with M105/rot -> M205/rot -> M205/DA -> UW/DA. Perhaps you've had PMs where he explained it in more detail.

Some things, such as the fact that the DAMF liquids are not white, and for that reason alone (among others) will finish differently from Ultimate/Mirror Glaze, doesn't have anything to do with paint hardness. Otherwise, we agree