Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

[SonataLF]

Hey guys, I've had my 2015 Sonata for a little over 3 months now and there are quite a few light swirl/scratch marks in the paint(Really only visible in direct light, especially with the metallic paint.). I've only taken it through an automatic car wash a few times. Most of the time I do a 2 bucket wash with ONR Ultimate W&W Anywhere in between and it was waxed with regular Turtle Wax paste wax (The only non-Meguiars product I use. Lol) The paint on this Hyundai must be soft because after 2 years with my '13 Jetta I literally only had a few very light swirl marks on the trunk and my cars are always outside and driven every day in all weather.

Anyway, I'm looking for the best course of action by hand. The paint is very smooth after washing so I can skip clay. Which store bought product should I use and what type of applicator (Foam or microfiber)?

Thanks or the help!

[Top Gear]

Re: Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

I'm sure the paint is very hard, as on my Hyundai. Couldn't tell if your Jetta was black as well, but that's a big part of it, and at least some of them are in the waxy/finish layers, rather than the actual clear coat. Still, even with a great wash regimen like you observe, swirls/spiderwebs will build up.

Anyway, sticking with the store selection, all you need right now might be a cleaner wax like Deep Crystal, or maybe a multi-step setup using Ultimate Compound, Ultimate Polish, and whichever wax you like, such as Gold Class, Deep Crystal Carnauba, or Ultimate/NXT, etc, etc. A picture would help us see what you mean by "light" swirls, but it's possible the cleaner-wax or the polish will take care of it. Do a test spot or two.

As the months and years go on, though, you will gradually lose out against the inevitable build up of swirls/spiderwebs (which black paint helps us see in full), and then more correction using a DA machine will be needed, but it sounds like you can continue to enjoy the new car window for a good while longer

[SonataLF]

Re: Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

That’s interesting about the Hyundai paint. My Sonata also spent a month on the dealer lot before I bought it while the Jetta was picked up right off the truck. My Jetta was also a metallic gray so that could have hid some swirls, but even in direct light and really trying to see something I really couldn’t see much, if anything at all.

I noticed that the Wash and wax anywhere spray does a good job hiding most of it so it gives me hope that they aren’t that bad. I’ll pick up a bottle and give the deep crystal a try first in an area (since this would be easiest) and if that doesn’t work I’ll go with the multi-step process you mentioned as I already have UC, UP and wax.

I’ll try to get a picture up here. Would a foam applicator be better than a microfiber one? I guess I knew what I was getting into with a black car but I hate using the machine so I’ll see what I can do with these suggestions first.

Thank you.

[Top Gear]

Re: Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

Ah, I thought so. Grey is a far cry from black, particularly metallic grey or white. Black will just reveal everything, but that fuels this hobby/therapy very well

It's been a while since I've hand-waxed, but I'm sure foam is fine. Try both. I'd use a Supreme Shine or very soft/plush MF towel/rag for removal/buff. If it takes more than a wipe or two then the wax is too thick, yet it may help to put it on thicker on the top surfaces to fend of a bit more rain/weather. Follow the directions, as some waxes now are not meant to dry to a haze at all, while others are.

I'm sure it will look great

[The Guz]

Re: Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

You really don't know how hard or soft the paint is until you do a test spot. Just because Top Gear has hard paint doesn't mean you do. Paints are all over the place. The test spot with the least aggressive approach is always the best thing to do first.

One thing to point out is that you can only do so much by hand.

Google the the plastic bag and clay bar. That will tell you if you need to clay or not.

I would actually pick up white wax instead of deep crystal. White Wax has a more cleaning power and correction power. It's great for a quick detail.

If you want to go for a full out correction then opt for ultimate compound and ultimate polish. Just be ready to have the feeling of your arms ready to fall off from all that work by hand.

Pick up some Meguiar's yellow foam applicators. I would say they are some of the best if not the best on the market.

By the way this is a good article to read.

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?56576-Avoiding-quot-cheetah-spots-quot-or-quot-Look-what-this-compound-did-to-my-paint!-quot

[Top Gear]

Re: Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

Likewise, just because Top Gear's paint is hard, it doesn't mean it's the only Hyundai with hard paint. In fact, just because Meguiar's or AutoGeek or others say paints/clears are all over the place, it doesn't actually prove that paint hardness is truly random, or that a significant amount of factory paints today are truly "soft"

Today, Genesis cars are fully assembled in South Korea, while Sonatas and others are assembled in Alabama USA. Maybe they use the same systems, maybe they don't. Maybe there are also differences between various years and maybe there aren't. Maybe the systems are irrelevant when the baking chemistry is the same. Maybe the chemistry is different but the resulting hardness is the same. Etc, etc. Nobody here actually knows one way or the other, and that includes Meguiar's. Since we probably do not know about a particular car before correcting it, this is one reason test areas are key, as I mentioned. You also want to test your hand, your eye, your process, and so on.

Yet, it's a pretty safe bet the paint on a 2015 Sonata is on the hard end, and even some testing may give you the wrong conclusion. I can very easily scratch my Genesis paint, but I know from many hours working it, often in vain using a DA with Meguiar's products, that it's certainly not soft. It chips (on metal) and gouges (on plastic) like mad from rocks kicked up from other vehicles on the highway, which is probably an indication of relative hardness, yet it seems to respond consistently to simple polishing or compounding for many defects, but sometimes requires straight up sanding. One of my previous cars had quite soft paint by comparison, yet it resisted scratches and also chipped easily, but I know from direct experience that older paint could never take a fraction of the abuse I've put toward my current paint.

Along with hardness variations, there seem to be variations in relative workability from paint/clear thickness and other factors which are not the same as hardness or density or hardener content. There are also many detailing products which can, and often do, give the temporary appearance of "correction" without actually correcting anything on harder paints, or not as much as it seems when the finish is fresh with oils and wax.

From reading many threads, the position of Meguiar's seems to be, for understandable reasons, that paint/clear hardness is essentially random, thus testing is necessary. That makes sense, because they cannot be held responsible for telling someone how hard their paint is, sight unseen, and have them blame Meguiar's for damage. For me, though, despite several different factory approaches, paint/clear hardness today isn't random, it does follow some rhymes and reasons, but testing is still necessary

[SonataLF]

Re: Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

Thanks for the info guys. I didn't have much time so I couldn't experiment, but I hose washed the car with Ultimate Wash and Wax and just used the maroon bottle cleaner wax using a foam applicator and it made a big difference. The worst spots were the hood, trunk and behind the passenger quarter window so I applied it only once there. You can still see some individual marks in certain direct sunlight but it's a real nice improvement for 20 minutes worth of work. (It leaves a surprisingly slick surface too)

When I have a few hours I'll try multiple applications or just try something a little more aggressive before the cleaner wax and I should be good to go. I think I may finally be retiring my Turtle Wax. Lol

[Top Gear]

Re: Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

That's a great early result I'd give it a few days/weeks and watch as the wax wears away a bit, being careful about washing and wiping of course, then fully wax at some point. You can keep doing this periodically for the rest of the year, perhaps much longer.

[SonataLF]

Re: Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

I just wanted to give an update since there aren’t many new posts in the by hand section. I finally have some time this week and decided to SwirlX my trouble spots by hand and then give it a light coat of cleaner wax until I put on a full coat of Black Wax on Saturday.

I used the yellow foam Meguiars applicator pad and did my whole hood. Section by section (a little more than 12” x 12”) with only one pass I was able to eliminate roughly about 60% of the swirls and noticeably cut down the visibility of the rest. I didn’t have much, or really severe swirling but it got it to an acceptable level for me. I probably should have done a couple of passes but it took an hour for the hood including applying a coat of cleaner wax afterwards. I’m very impressed with the SwirlX since I only worked it for around a minute for each section and it left a very smooth, ready for wax finish.

I only have the roof, one C pillar and a light pass on the trunk to do before I do a hose wash (90% of my washes are ONR) and black Wax application.

On the trunk and spoiler, I did the whole area with a microfiber pad and ScratchX 2.0 since there were actual scratches there but nothing you can feel. I felt it needed a step above the Swirlx and it worked very well but left some hazing. I went over the area with Ultimate Polish a couple of times and was able to get the finish clear.

I’ve pretty much determined that this paint is fairly soft and using the more aggressive products (even ScratchX) will cause hazing. Overall I’m most impressed with the SwirlX, since for a milder product and only doing one pass, it’s able to get my car to at least acceptable (which is pretty good for normal people Lol) and I’m sure the Black Wax will help hide whatever remains and make the car pop even more.

[Top Gear]

Re: Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

Sounds great. Although, IMO, hazing is more an indication of aggression and abrading, or technique rather than paint softness. My paint is very hard, yet hazes a bit with MF and UC, but that haze immediately disappears with D300 or a polish. Anyway, seems like you've got a process figured out

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

Likewise, just because Top Gear's paint is hard, it doesn't mean it's the only Hyundai with hard paint. In fact, just because Meguiar's or AutoGeek or others say paints/clears are all over the place, it doesn't actually prove that paint hardness is truly random, or that a significant amount of factory paints today are truly "soft"

Today, Genesis cars are fully assembled in South Korea, while Sonatas and others are assembled in Alabama USA. Maybe they use the same systems, maybe they don't. Maybe there are also differences between various years and maybe there aren't. Maybe the systems are irrelevant when the baking chemistry is the same. Maybe the chemistry is different but the resulting hardness is the same. Etc, etc. Nobody here actually knows one way or the other, and that includes Meguiar's. Since we probably do not know about a particular car before correcting it, this is one reason test areas are key, as I mentioned. You also want to test your hand, your eye, your process, and so on.

Yet, it's a pretty safe bet the paint on a 2015 Sonata is on the hard end, and even some testing may give you the wrong conclusion. I can very easily scratch my Genesis paint, but I know from many hours working it, often in vain using a DA with Meguiar's products, that it's certainly not soft. It chips (on metal) and gouges (on plastic) like mad from rocks kicked up from other vehicles on the highway, which is probably an indication of relative hardness, yet it seems to respond consistently to simple polishing or compounding for many defects, but sometimes requires straight up sanding. One of my previous cars had quite soft paint by comparison, yet it resisted scratches and also chipped easily, but I know from direct experience that older paint could never take a fraction of the abuse I've put toward my current paint.

Along with hardness variations, there seem to be variations in relative workability from paint/clear thickness and other factors which are not the same as hardness or density or hardener content. There are also many detailing products which can, and often do, give the temporary appearance of "correction" without actually correcting anything on harder paints, or not as much as it seems when the finish is fresh with oils and wax.

From reading many threads, the position of Meguiar's seems to be, for understandable reasons, that paint/clear hardness is essentially random, thus testing is necessary. That makes sense, because they cannot be held responsible for telling someone how hard their paint is, sight unseen, and have them blame Meguiar's for damage. For me, though, despite several different factory approaches, paint/clear hardness today isn't random, it does follow some rhymes and reasons, but testing is still necessary

Oh my. First off, the simple fact that your Genesis was built in South Korea and the Sonata is built in the USA all but guarantees the paint is most definitely NOT the same. We work with our team in South Korea all the time, obviously, and we've been in the factories and in body shops there. Same holds true for OEM facilities and body shops world wide. And we have worked directly with every major paint supplier for decades. We know full well, for a fact, that not all paint systems are created equal and that they can react in widely (and wildly) different ways to the same input. Once you've worked on literally hundreds of different cars you really get a feel for how dramatically different paint systems can be.

Let's look at one paint in particular that has a very specific reputation on detailing forums: BMW Jet Black. You'll read all over the place that BMW Jet Black in insanely soft, hazes so easily that it's darn near impossible to finish out haze free, etc. But BMW builds cars in different factories in different countries and they always have more than one paint supplier in each of those factories. That's a simple, irrefutable fact. And these different countries have very different regulations governing emissions regulations, use of certain chemicals, etc. And while all of the various paints used by the OEMs do indeed go through a high temp oven for curing, that in no way makes them all the same. So BMW Jet Black is supposed to be just frustratingly soft, yet the single hardest paint that I, personally, have ever encountered, was a Jet Black BMW 3 Series. And I worked on that car shortly before working on a Jet Black 1 Series that did indeed have that insanely soft paint. So what gives? Different model years, different build factories. Simple as that. And the difference was night and day, two extreme cases of paint variability. Jeez, these two could not have been more different if one was black and the other was white.

You said "In fact, just because Meguiar's or AutoGeek or others say paints/clears are all over the place, it doesn't actually prove that paint hardness is truly random, or that a significant amount of factory paints today are truly "soft" " Hey, you don't have to believe us, or Autogeek, but the sheer number of cars that many of us have personally worked on over the years, and the huge number of high level pro detailers that we've worked with - guys who have prepped cars that have won Best of Show at Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, Villa d'Este, etc or who take care of major car collections around the world - heck, just guys who detail every make and model of daily driver you can think of - will tell you that how different paints respond to the exact same input is as varied as the cars themselves. In fact, a major component of the NXT Program that we've done the past several years, and that we're doing again later this month in Maryland, is these extremely talented detailers (from all over the world) who often struggle to finish out these very soft, touch sensitive, haze prone paints.

Just looking at the different cars we select for out Saturday Classes, and over the past decade or more of doing those classes that alone is a wide variety of cars, we see all kinds of different paints that respond in all manner of different ways to the exact same input. Same thing with TNOG sessions, and probably more so because we work on multiple cars each night instead of just one car like we do on Saturdays. Name a brand - we've worked on it and we've seen variations in the paint on that brand. And that includes something as common as Toyota or Ford and as rare and exclusive as Bugatti and Ferrari. And the one thing that is truly consistent is just how inconsistent the paint is.

[Top Gear]

Re: Light Swirls on Black Car - Which Product?

Oh my. First off, the simple fact that your Genesis was built in South Korea and the Sonata is built in the USA all but guarantees the paint is most definitely NOT the same.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but that was my point, above. I'm certainly NOT questioning your expertise in particular, Meguiar's, nor anyone else's. Speaking logically, though, neither extreme is provable, either that all Hyundai (or even Genesis, made in Korea) paints, even of certain years, are literally all the same hardness (which you seem to assume is my point but it wasn't), or on the other hand, that all paints, even from the same model and year and delivery, vary as ridiculously or into different paradigms or dimensions of hardness difference as you guys seem go on and on about (such as the BMW example and others you've said in various threads). Different hardnesses, perhaps due to variations even you admit are unknowable, doesn't mean the variations are provable, nor that the resulting differences are truly random or wildly divergent, like separate galaxy kinds of different