Gelcoat restoration not lasting

[Reverie]

After safely and very comfortably delivering us from Florida to New Zealand, our good little ship Reverie – a 41’ Hans Christian cutter was grossly neglected while we became side-tracked with life for most of 20 years. It’s payback time and we are returning her to her original glory.

We aborted the restoration of the heavily oxidized and stained gelcoat with 3M product to Meguiar’s product line with magnificent results. Process being used is (1) Wet sand 1,000 – 2,000 grit (2) 91 Power Cut (3) 67 1 Step Compound, (4) 45 High Gloss Polish <2 applications> (5) 63 Premium Wax. Step 1 and 2 are eliminated for 90% of the area – and only used where extreme staining has occurred. Compound application of 91 and 67 are powered on with a Festool RO 90 & RO 150. Polish and Wax are applied by hand.

The results were amazing – the gelcoat returned to new boat condition. Each day we would wash the work done the day before plus the next section before starting the next Meguiar’s process. After about 2 weeks, following a heavy rain, wash of previously completed areas returned a significantly reduced lustre, and the return of staining. The staining is thought to be caused by airborne particles of steel as they appear as rust like speckles. Additional black streaks seem to be caused by other boat parts trapping water then slowly dripping dirty water across the hull area after the rain. Washing would not remove the staining and of course did not help the lustre.

We did sin during each washing. We used ArmorAll, Heavy Duty Car Wash – Sorry Mr. Meguiar – I’ve now purchased 54 – Gel Wash. Next wash will be with Meguiar product only.

Another application of 45 – with lots of hard rubbing has resolved the situation in a test area, removing the staining, and restoring the lustre. Whilst we’re keen and I own my beloved boat big time for the neglect previously inflicted, polishing ever 2 or 3 weeks is not an option.

Seeking technical support from the a Trade Shop run by the Meguiar’s importer, the advice received was – “gelcoat is porous – once it deteriorates to the state described, the restoration via polishing is short lived. PAINT it !” Someone please tell me this is not true ….. Meguiar’s must have another bottle of magic – or maybe I just need more of what I’m using.

[Detailing by M]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

what's your question?

[Reverie]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

Question is what else can I do to stop the rapid deterioration of the restored finish - short of painting. Why if I have restored it to new boat gloss and protected it with wax is staining re-occurring - how is it getting thru the protective coat of wax ?

If the process I am using produces new boat condition results but only lasts for 2 weeks, I am guessing I am doing something wrong. I have guessed that the porous, aged gelcoat indeed needs more of something ..... The Meguiar Polish talks about restoring the lost oils ..... if that is the case, should I be applying more polish .... feeding the gelcoat more - until the porosity is minimised. Alternatively is there another product which would work better than the series I have used? Have I washed away the protective wax by using ArmorAll ? Should I apply more wax ? If I apply more product - when - at the moment, we go thru 67,45,63 in one session - section by section ..... 45 is times 2 - should it be times 4 ? Should I wait for X period of time and apply more 45 ......

Sorry if my original post is confusing - it's probably because I am very confused. We went from ugly to beautiful then back to ugly if far too short of time ...... Why ???????

[Murr1525]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

At some point, the surface can just become unstable/failing, and nothing will save it.

I would just focus on 1 small square for now, not re-doing the whole boat each time. The first step would be just to repeat what you did on a small square, and maybe an extra coat of polish before waxing.

If it fails quickly again, it may just be failing gel coat.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

You have a few things working against you here, unfortunately.

First off, gel coats just don't last forever, and 20 years of neglect is extremely detrimental to the overall health and well being of this surface. Second, just as the tech support person you spoke with said, gel coat is pretty porous stuff, which helps to explain why 20 years of neglect is so hard on it. Gel coats tend to be much thicker than automotive paint (on the order of 10x thicker, usually) and far more porous. This only gets exacerbated by wetsanding, which basically cuts down into the pores and opens them up even more. Don't kick yourself though, the age alone is the biggest obstacle you're up against.

Your use of M91, M67, M45 and M63 was definitely the right plan of attack, but you really are fighting a losing battle here, and we really do hate to tell you that. That tech support guy was pretty much spot on regarding porosity, age and condition of gel coat. Some things can not be "restored" and must be "replaced".

At this point probably the best you can do is to apply M61 Flagship Premium Cleaner Wax every couple of months with your Festool buffer. This will help to remove the effects of light oxidation and streaking due to the cleaning ability of the wax, and using the tool for application will take the stress off your arms and back. You might also want to look into regular applications of our Ultimate Quik Wax spray (or our pro equivalent, in gallons: D156 Synthetic Express Spray Wax if you can get in New Zealand) and do a simple spray and wipe with it on a very regular basis (like weekly, if possible). We know that's a lot of square footage to deal with on such a regular basis, but using the Festool for application of the cleaner wax and a simple spray and wipe application of the synthetic wax are about as non-labor intensive as you're going to get without paying for a full paint job.

[Detailing by M]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

Coat it with Opti Coat, 22PPL, Cquartz and the like

[Reverie]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

Thanks Michael. I will do exactly as you are suggesting and hope for the best. I am however struggling with the process though - must be fundamental but I just don't see it. How can I make it look like new on one day and have it disappear the next - is this being caused by the porosity which would imply that it is simply sucking all the product in and exposing it's naked pores to the atmosphere ? If that is the case - would it not eventually become saturated - surely it does not fall out the back side of the gelcoat.

[Reverie]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

Oh no ..... more new words ..... Dr. Google here I come again. Before I staredt the deep dig on these new words, and since you are clearly a Meguiar's pro ..... Are you recommending one of these coating following the Meguiar's process I've already done, or somewhere along the path of the Meguiar's plan ..... or is this an alternative process - instead of the Meguiar's.

[Detailing by M]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

Coatings are an alternative to traditional wax and sealents

[Reverie]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

Cheers. Looks like utterly magic stuff - however the results of the initial dig into the house of google sound very heavily car focused ......... I'm working on a 22 ton hunk of fibreglass that crosses oceans ..... should I continue the dig or save it until I get focused on my cars.

[Detailing by M]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

You can coat anything. But it's all up to you.
Keep waxing it a lot or coat it.

[Reverie]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

Michael We sometimes suffer from the tiny country problem and do not have access to entire product lines. Quite surprising but looks like our importer is not sourcing M61 - I see M50 - would that be ok or would you suggest something else ..... On the other hand D156 is here - sometimes we win sometimes not.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

M50 is great stuff, but the M61 would last a bit longer under, shall we say, more normal circumstances. If you can't get it, you can't get it so that sort of ends that now, doesn't it?!?!?


Now then, we've got two different topics going on here: 1) Why is the gel coat deteriorating so quickly after correction? and 2) The new breed of coatings and their compatibility with this particular surface.

Let's look at the first one first. Given the age of the gel coat and it's condition, the structure of the material has deteriorated and opened up quite a bit. Sanding may have helped to smooth this down and eliminate a lot of the surface oxidation but it also cuts into the material and exposes deeper reaches of it that are equally dried out. With the material being so porous, and so desiccated, it's going to drink in everything you can throw at it. But what you're throwing at it, in this case M45, is not anything with any real durability. M45 is a pure polish, meaning it's really just a beauty treatment for the paint (or in this case, gel coat) and it's effects are fleeting. A pure polish that is extremely popular among the show car set is our M07 Show Car Glaze. If you apply this to a beautifully prepared, healthy paint surface it can do wonders to increase gloss and depth of color. But leave it as the top coat and it will fade away in a matter of weeks, or wash away in a good rain (or even after a proper washing). But on a neglected surface, this "beauty treatment" is going to be even more fleeting. Think about a moisturizing lotion you apply to your skin. If you have slightly dry skin and it's flaking off a bit, applying a good moisturizer will do wonders for it. You can sort of create this situation by fairly aggressively scratching your forearm with the fingernails on your opposing hand, creating some light flaking and a whitish set of lines on the skin. Apply a moisturizer and that is all gone, and it stays gone. But if you have a chronic dry skin condition that requires medical treatment, applying a simple lotion will only mask the problem temporarily. Many skin disorders can be corrected thanks to modern medicine, and we are constantly growing new skin cells, sloughing off the old dying ones, and basically rejuvenating our outer layers. Your badly neglected gel coat is like this chronic skin disorder, with one major difference - the gel coat on the boat now is the only gel coat it will ever have; it will not grown new gel coat on its own. So you're stuck with a case of terminal dry skin, er, gel coat. Your earlier thought about loading it with M45 until it becomes saturated doesn't actually work because M45 is far from permanent. Even applying a wax on top only does so much, since heavy rain is one of the hardest conditions to subject any wax to. As much as we hate to say it, we really do think you're kind of stuck here.

As for the new breed of semi permanent coatings on the market, that's an interesting proposition. But most of these want, in fact demand, that they be applied to an extremely clean surface devoid of any sort of wax, sealant, compound or polish residue, etc. Prep is critical with these products, and you've got 40' of boat to deal with. On a brand new hull one of these coatings is probably a great idea, albeit a bit pricey (though certainly less expensive than a full paint job!). You're often looking at an expenditure of $50 to $80 or more, depending on the coating, for a typical passenger car. Your boat is anything but. And application can be a bit finicky with some, and almost never recommended for use in direct sunlight. Unless you've got a mighty big boat house, that poses a problem, too. But the biggest stumbling block with any coating, in this particular situation, is again that surface condition. Will a coating actually bond, or will the surface be too porous? Will you be able to get a proper coating on there and make it stick? You might want to check around at your local marina and see if anyone is familiar with a coating called Permanon, which has a huge following in the boating world. Whether or not it's recommended or even suitable for an aged finish is something we can not speak to as it's not our product.

[Reverie]

Re: Gelcoat restoration not lasting

Thank you very very much for your unparalleled support - you're support is just as good as your fantastic product line - and thanks also to the advice from other experienced and dedicated users of your fine products - We're off to the shop for more Meguiar's ..... even if it is a loosing battle - we shall fight to the end or maybe until I surrender and paint her ...... Other than the hull, all bright work is being restored to a minimum of 10 coats of varnish - all painted surfaces (other than the exterior hull are going thru a 5 coat paint process .... new engine, rig, sails, electronics, electrics and on and on - so what's a bit more polish and wax in the whole scheme of things . ...... Thanks again for helping us restore some shine to the hull even if it is short lived.