Solid Single Stage Red - Best products to use with a DA (G110v2/G220v2) ?

[jfelbab]

James, I know you directed these questions at Michael but I'd love to give my impressions as well. Ignore them if you don't want the input.

On my Super Red MR2 I especially like the look of three LSP's. UW liquid, #25 and M301. All darken the color and add a glow not seen in NXT or M21. I have several bottles of the latter that I use on lighter colors but the medium red just glows with the three aforementioned. When I would show my MR2, I'd have people standing in line asking what I use, as the glow was almost florescent. When I took it to my Toyota dealer for service there is always a crowd of onlookers. M21 and NXT are excellent at reflecting light but IMHO, the deep dark glow looks better on this color. This is just my personal opinion, of course.

As to M80/M83/M07. M80 is pretty oily and does negate somewhat the need for M07, yet the 07 seems to be absorbed by aging ss paint and may help to keep it alive longer so I used to use it regularly. I also would use it on top of my LSP just before a show where the oily nature of 07 made the paint look fresh and wet. After the show I'd QD and reapply my LSP. I never found that I needed M83 on this SS paint.

I find UC to be much more aggressive than M80 or #205. This ss paint is so soft that there is little need to use overly aggressive products to achieve stellar results, IMO.

If I'm mistaken on the aggressiveness level of UC here Mike will correct me but I seem to recall that UC was like a 10 on aggressiveness and M80 and M205 were around a 4. M105 is like a 12 on that scale. M205 and M80 are much more finishing polishes but this SS paint is so soft as to make it really effective at removing any marring.

I also might add that the foam pads I used were much less aggressive than I'd use on a CC paint. One of the things I loved with this paint is it's easy correction.

[James McEwan]

jfelbab,

Thanks for your input. However isn't your car a re-spray in clear coat? Therefore any comments regarding the detailing of that wouldn't apply to mine. It would be great if you were talking about detailing your car if it was factory super red, or even the original crimson red?

BTW, I don't think there is any "#25", you probably meant to state M205 or M26. I don't think there's a "M301", you probably meant to state D301 Finishing Wax, which is for the microfibre DA system and not suited to single stage paints, it's more for clear coats and harder coats.

Ultimate Compound doesn't have a cut rating as it's consumer line, also shown in my second post of this thread. You are maybe thinking of M105 Ultra-Cut Compound which has a cut of 12/12. M80 must be worked until diminished to get the true benefits, whereas M105 can be done in 1 or many passes until it's about to dry up, as it's SMAT (non-diminishing) and for a lighter cut, you can weight it lightly. Even if UC were to have a cut rating, it wouldn't be as high as 10, it would be more likely to be between M205 (4/12) and M01 Medium Cut Cleaner (7/10), you could guess 6, but Meguair's don't give cut ratings for consumer line. Cut ratings are usually rated for machine application and you can't give the same rating for a consumer line product that may typically be applied by hand.

BTW, M80 is a 4/10 and M205 is 4/12 and yes M105 is 12/12, also shown in my second post of this thread.

Thanks for your input, as I've spent many many hours reading past posts for knowledge and tips, I'm now really hoping now for Michael Stoop's professional Meguiar's view.

[jfelbab]

jfelbab,

Thanks for your input. However isn't your car a re-spray in clear coat? Therefore any comments regarding the detailing of that wouldn't apply to mine. It would be great if you were talking about detailing your car if it was factory super red, or even the original crimson red?

BTW, I don't think there is any "#25", you probably meant to state M205 or M26. I don't think there's a "M301", you probably meant to state D301 Finishing Wax, which is for the microfibre DA system and not suited to single stage paints, it's more for clear coats and harder coats.

Ultimate Compound doesn't have a cut rating as it's consumer line, also shown in my second post of this thread. You are maybe thinking of M105 Ultra-Cut Compound which has a cut of 12/12. M80 must be worked until diminished to get the true benefits, whereas M105 can be done in 1 or many passes as it's SMAT (non-diminishing) and for a lighter cut, you can weight it lightly. Even if UC were to have a cut rating, it wouldn't be as high as 10, it would be more likely to be between M205 (4/12) and M01 Medium Cut Cleaner (7/10), you could guess 6, but Meguair's don't give cut ratings for consumer line. Cut ratings are usually rated for machine application and you can't give the same rating for a consumer line product that may typically be applied by hand.

BTW, M80 is a 4/10 and M205 is 4/12 and yes M105 is 12/12, also shown in my second post of this thread.

Thanks for your input, as I've spent many many hours reading past posts for knowledge and tips, I'm now really hoping now for Michael Stoop's professional Meguiar's view.

Yes my car is now a respray but I was speaking of my experience during the years it was single stage in my comments. The car is now 20 years old and for the first 15 years it was SS. I fought with aging ss paint for several years.

I was referring to M26 which is if course Hi-Tech Yellow Wax. This LSP leaves a great dark glow to solid red paint. Sorry for the typo, and yes I was referring to D301 the finishing polish/wax. D301 was not around when my MR2 was still single stage but it has a good look on the super red cc paint now. Although it is CC'd now, I'd venture it would look pretty decent on the old SS paint as well. It has done a nice job on a ss black 95 Lexus for me.

FWIW, here is a list of product aggressiveness I picked up here on the forum:
http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums...ssiveness+list

And here is a list complied on another forum:
http://www.autopiaforums.com/forums/...son-chart.html

And another:
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/auto...ves-chart.html

As you can see, UC is slightly less aggressive than M105 and much more aggressive than many other products including M83. Granted much depends on the application method and pads used.

Good luck with your MR2.

[bmrfan]

When I purchased my '89 BMW E30-S52, the original red single stage paint was very neglected by the previous owner - moderate oxidization and moderate swirling.

I did an experiment comparing #7, Color-X, #80, #205, & UC on the trunk lid - (YES - I know #7 doesn't have any cutting ability but the paint was oxidized and I was curious to see much #7 by itself can "restore" the paint).





My observations...

- #7 (by itself) really helped make the paint much deeper red but left "splotchy" areas and did not remove any swirls (PC 7424XP setting 3 with Black Finishing Pad)
- Color-X had a much more consistent red color and slight reduction in swirls (DA set on 3-4 with Black Finishing Pad)
- #80 had a very consistent red color and removed 70-80% of the swirls (DA set on 5 with Yellow Polishing Pad)
- #205 had similar red color as #80 but removed 80-90% of the swirls (DA set on 5 with Yellow Polishing Pad)
- UC had similar red color as #80 and also remove 80-90% of the swirls (DA set on 5 with Yellow Polishing Pad)

I ended up applying #7 before using #205 (Mike Phillips has an excellent write-up on this technique). By "pre-treating" with #7, I found I could work the #205 much longer.

HTH

[James McEwan]

Hi bmrfan,

Thanks for your photo comparison. It's a pity they weren't all tested under the same application method, as I'm sure ColorX would have preformed better, such as if it had of been applied with the polishing pad. It's the whole apples and oranges again.

Though comparing the other products applied in the same way, the Ultimate Compound really stands out, so I'm surprised thatvyou didn't go for that and follow up with SwirlX.

As Michael stated and I now agree, my car isn't as heavily oxidized and so would not really benefit from using M07 as a first stage product.

[Michael Stoops]

OK, we've done a bit more housekeeping here, moving my original post in the other version of this discussion into this version of it, and doing away altogether with the other one. Whew! Apologies for my late response here as I'm travelling and currently in the Detroit, MI area for a couple of days.

James, it's really going to come down to your test spot(s) to see what works best. The paint on you car may not be all that badly oxidized, but it could be very badly dried out, which will play a huge role in how well any product works on it. As an example: a few years ago I worked on a Ferrari 360 Modena that had very badly dried out clear coat. It looked badly swirled and neglected, but the clear coat was obviously not failing. An initial test spot with M105 proved totally useless as that product immediately gummed up on the surface due to the dried out paint pulling what little lubrication there is in M105 right out of it. Ultimate Compound didn't exist at the time, so I reached for M80 in the belief that the additional oils in it would make it a better match for this paint. And it worked like a charm. Not only were the oils a huge help, but the cut level of M80 was all that was needed to fully correct this paint as it was fairly "soft" and quite workable. As a side note, I detailed another Ferrari 360 this past weekend, and the paint was in much better shape to start with, but it was still quite easy to work on and all it needed was D300 on a foam polishing pad to correct, and then some M205 on a finishing pad to really make it pop. The point is, these were two cars of the same make and model, and I believe even the same model year, but the paint condition was quite different on the two, and so the process needed to correct them was quite different. Unless and until you start playing with the paint, you just don't know for sure what product/pad combo is going to be the "best".

Prior to the introduction of Ultimate Compound, we used to use M80 and/or M83 in our Saturday Classes, even on modern clear coat paint that was in anything from good to pretty bad shape. So the use of diminishing abrasives or SMAT isn't really the key to whether a product is right for a given paint, it's really more about how the paint reacts. People are often confused by the wide range of products we have, but it's really the paint that's the big variable. Most of you know that we don't recommend using our burgundy cutting pad on the DA because of how aggressive it is and the great potential for hazing the paint. Yet, every now and then (though admittedly very rare) we find a paint that actually really likes that pad on the DA. Likewise, we've seen plenty of paint with really severe defects that just hated having a wool pad applied to it via rotary buffer (this BMW being a case in point).

It sounds like you have a plan for the initial test spot(s) on your car, but if you find that neither M80 nor M83 is quite up to the task, Ultimate Compound is going to be the next logical step. In fact, just due to it's user friendliness, I'd probably go straight from M80 to UC if the M80 doesn't give the result. M83 can be a bit dry and dusty, especially if over used. UC offers a long buffing cycle with even more cut. But don't let the cut level worry you - remember; you can adjust the cut of any product by adjusting your tool speed, pressure, pad choice, etc.

As for the discussion surround LSP choice, that's always such a personal thing. There is no doubt that our Ultimate Wax is our longest lasting, best protecting LSP at the moment, so if those are you main criteria for LSP selection, you have your choice. Personally, I don't see UW as being a "plastic" looking synthetic product. In fact, I used it last weekend on that red Ferrari and it came up looking fantastic. But I also really like the look of Gold Class on reds and blacks, and it was what I used on the BMW linked to above. But then again, truth be told, I'm a bit fickle when it comes to wax choice and I tend to go back and forth all the time. If I don't use, for example, M26 for a couple of years and then on a whim decide to reach for it, I'll be pleasantly reminded of just how good it is. That's precisely what happened with the Gold Class on that BMW.

When it comes to selecting the paint cleaner or compound to use on a car, the paint will make the decision for you. But when it comes to selecting an LSP, you get to decide.

[James McEwan]

Thanks very much Michael.

I knew different years of paints on the sane model of car could have a different affect, but hadn't considered that the paint hardness and dryness can change differently as it ages, but that makes sense now, thanks! Based on things like: environmental conditions; weather; cleaning products & methods; as well as protection products used.

So it seems there's no way to find out how dry the paint is, other than testing products on it?

My car has some oxidation in some areas and areas/panels with different colour shading due to different amounts of fading. For example, the upper halves of the doors are more faded than the lower halves, because of the curvature of the panels, the upper gets more sun. Though most people don't notice this and a previous MR2 owner recently commented how good it looked (he had seen up close, not a photo). However people who work in bodyshops can see all the shades of red on the car and I can too, with oxidation in some areas.

To my novice eye, it doesn't look too badly dried out, especially compared to the older extreme cases I've seen on here. However the plastic trim along the sides of the car and the plastic spoiler, which were factory painted, have faded badly, but to a darker color red, which seems quite common, but I don't understand why that occurs?

Normally I'd expectI didn't mean things to fade to a lighter color. The paint on these plastic parts doesn't look oxidized, but is the color change an indication that it's dried out?

Yes durability is my main priority for the LSP, I think I'll go with Ultimate Wax. I didn't mean that was plasticy, but that M21 was. I understand Ultimate Wax has about the same longevity but with properties to darken the color and enhance depth, I think.

Based on your great help, I think I'll do the following:-
+ Test with M80 & Ultimate Compound.
+ M07 if needed after M80, or just on dry plastic painted parts.
+ Ultimate Liquid Wax.

Thanks,
James

[James McEwan]

Hi Michael,

I tested the Ultimate Compound by hand with a dual-sided foam applicator pad (polyurethane) on part of the rear of side panel above the rear wheel arch where there was some oxidation and probably the worst on the car. The results were amazing!

Questions:
Would it be OK to do the whole car in Ultimate Compound, spending longer time on the areas with more fading & oxidation?

Next and before waxing (Ultimate Wax), should I follow up with M07 or Ultimate Polish & then M07?

The factory painted (same colour) plastic trim along the side of the car and rear spoiler; have faded to a dull matt red. The Ultimate Compound helped it a little bit but not much. Does single stage factory painted trim & spoilers tend to dry out, so that I should replenish by M07 or is it usually something else?

Looking at all the curved panels & nooks & crannies, the 7" standard foam pad would not sit flat on the panels, except the hood. So would 4" pads be acceptable for the whole car, or would it be best done by hand, as I'd need to do quite a few areas that the 4" couldn't reach anyway? Obviously by hand I wouldn't get the same level of correction, but in areas where the DA could not reach, and would have to do these by hand, so I'm not sure if it would be a concern trying to match the areas done by DA & hand.

I'm going to try get some photos now, as the camera I used last time didn't take a true image and basically removed all the fading & oxidation!

Thanks,
James

[James McEwan]

Other side of car untouched [image below]



Other side of car untouched & faded plastic trim on door [image below]



Left side of photo after Ultimate Compound & right side of photo untouched [image below]



Side panel side of spoiler after Ultimate Compound; trunk & rest of spoiler [image below]


Sorry, I should have got a better photo of the spoiler, to show the untreated part. I'll try get another one tomorrow.

While Ultimate Compound gave amazing results, I'm a little worried it might be too harsh, as it gave excellent results very quickly. Which worries me about using a DA on this car. Maybe I should have used the finer side of the dual sided foam pad and taken more time with lighter passes. As I had done this area a few days ago after washing the car, to test it and this evening some fine but deep scratches appeared and I'm concerned they might be from the Ultimate Compound. Tonight, I just cleaned the area and did some light passes of with Ultimate Compound for the photos. This also filled in the fine scratches temporarily. I understand of course I'll need to follow up with a polish & wax, this was just to test the Ultimate Compound on this paint.

What do you think Michael?

[James McEwan]

Sorry, just a re-think on that post above. I think the fine but deep scratches were probably not caused by Ultimate Compound as it only has tiny uniform size abrasives, so the couple of scratches must have been from dirt that I'd picked up on the foam pad, when I dropped it on the trunk carpeted floor. I'll be more careful with my applicators from now on and keep them in plastic bags. I should have also mentioned, despite the brilliant shine produced by the Ultimate Compound, it didn't appear to take off much paint, from looking at the pad. It just shows how amazing the Ultimate Compound is!