Marine vs Automotive

[Hoytman]

I've heard that most marine products tend to be a tad more aggressive than automotive products. This would seem to make sense given that gel-coat is harder than clear-coat. How much harder I've yet to hear defined. I know from my own experience gel-coat seems extremely hard. Without further research I can't say if there are different types of gel-coat systems, as there are paint systems, but if I were to guess I'd say there are different systems with varying degrees of hardness. Which leads me to some questions that I have concerning a couple upcoming boat details. I am debating on whether to use M105/205 on W4000 pads, or switch over to marine products. Neither boats are in that bad of shape and if I do a test spot I'm expecting M105 to be sufficient. I'm still curious as to how much the products are different, if at all.

I have M105/205, and D300/301 and I'm not too enthused about buying more products. However, if there's a real need to use marine products then I'm not opposed to it.

How does M91 compare to M105 in terms of cut and finish?
Does Meguiar's offer a comparison chart comparing Marine cut and finish to the automotive products?
Are their any technical bulletins that I may find of interest?

EDIT:
I just realized this is my first post since joining in 2011. So, HELLOOOO everyone!!!

Bill

[Hoytman]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

Y'all will have to forgive, being I'm new to posting here.

I just found the Marine sub-forum and found this great article...: http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?31862-Why-Marine-over-Auto-Products

...but I'll take any additional information anyone wants to add.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

Gel coat is not only much harder than automotive paint, but much thicker (25 mils average vs 2 mils average for automotive clear coat) and much more porous as well. In many ways it's the porosity that can bite you when using non Marine products on gel coat, especially if the gel is badly dried out. M105 just does not like dried out surfaces, even traditional paint finishes, as the moisture in it will be completely absorbed into the surface and the remaining product will tend to gum up.

D300 tends to work quite well on gel coat, however, even when it's fairly dry. In all honesty, we'd probably try that before trying M105, but we really like M67 One Step Compound on badly oxidized gel - it works great with a W7xxx foam cutting pad via DA on this.

M91 will cut similarly to M105 and has been reformulated to perform even better on neglected, oxidized gel without gumming up after all it's lubricants have been pulled out by the dry and porous gel coat. We don't really have any direct comparisons or charts showing relative cut of the marine products to the automotive products because the abrasive technology tends to vary, the marine products tend to be a coarser cut and just behave differently because the substrate they're designed to work on behaves differently.

In cases where the gel coat is in good shape but just needs some cleaning up, most of our Mirror Glaze line, and even Ultimate Compound, will do quite well. But if you've got a seriously oxidized and neglected gel coat, you'll definitely get faster and better results with the Marine/RV line of compounds.

[Hoytman]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

Gel coat is not only much harder than automotive paint, but much thicker (25 mils average vs 2 mils average for automotive clear coat) and much more porous as well. In many ways it's the porosity that can bite you when using non Marine products on gel coat, especially if the gel is badly dried out. M105 just does not like dried out surfaces, even traditional paint finishes, as the moisture in it will be completely absorbed into the surface and the remaining product will tend to gum up.

Unless someone told you about it, most folks wouldn't think gel-coat is porous. Thanks for bringing this up as I had heard that before but had forgotten about it. When you mention dry my mind immediately thinks of Meguiar's ol' #7 coming to the rescue. I love this stuff and have used it for years. Would #7 be effective in some way to keep gel-coat from drying, or perhaps replenishing oils before compounding?

D300 tends to work quite well on gel coat, however, even when it's fairly dry. In all honesty, we'd probably try that before trying M105, but we really like M67 One Step Compound on badly oxidized gel - it works great with a W7xxx foam cutting pad via DA on this.

I have some D300 and can certainly try it. These marine products, M67, M91, and others, are they classified as SMAT or DAT compounds/polishes? You said, "M67 One Step Compound." I take it then that it's not the same as a one-step cleaner wax?

M91 will cut similarly to M105 and has been reformulated to perform even better on neglected, oxidized gel without gumming up after all it's lubricants have been pulled out by the dry and porous gel coat. We don't really have any direct comparisons or charts showing relative cut of the marine products to the automotive products because the abrasive technology tends to vary, the marine products tend to be a coarser cut and just behave differently because the substrate they're designed to work on behaves differently.

Good information. So I take it M91 has more polishing oils? With what I'm understanding from you, it seems that since gel-coat can be so dry that perhaps all of the marine line is, "wetter", for lack of a better term.

In cases where the gel coat is in good shape but just needs some cleaning up, most of our Mirror Glaze line, and even Ultimate Compound, will do quite well. But if you've got a seriously oxidized and neglected gel coat, you'll definitely get faster and better results with the Marine/RV line of compounds.

More good information to keep in the back of my mind. Before buying any other products then, it appears I should try some of my Ultimate compound and see how it does.

Thanks!

Bill

[BillE]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

M-45 would be the Marine/RV equivalent to M-07. I'll be honest, I have not had good results using #45 (always ends up 'splotchy', but that is only me).

M-91 is a true compound. If you use it, you will need to follow up with a less aggressive product. But, man does that stuff work!

Bill

[Hoytman]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

M-45 would be the Marine/RV equivalent to M-07. I'll be honest, I have not had good results using #45 (always ends up 'splotchy', but that is only me).

M-91 is a true compound. If you use it, you will need to follow up with a less aggressive product. But, man does that stuff work!

Bill

Good information about M-45...I'll look into it. I already have ol'#7, which is an awesome product that's been around a long, long time.

Good to hear about M91 as well. I'll be doing a test spot first with less aggressive products, but my hunch is it's going to take a wool pad and a rotary to fix the problem. If it does take the wool, it'll most likely need an aggressive compound and then followed up with some other product(?...to be determined) and a foam pad(s). Just trying to get all my ducks in a row before starting. I want each product I may possibly need so that it's on hand when I start.

Thanks for the reply.

Bill

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

It is very common to use M45 (or M07) prior to compounding on dry gel coat for the very reason you suspect, Bill - it can and will help to prevent the compound from drying out too quickly and therefore gumming up.

If you haven't seen it yet, here's a project we did in our training garage a couple of years ago on an old ski boat with badly oxidized gel coat. We found, on this particular boat, at least, that a rotary was actually less effective than a cutting pad on a DA.

[Hoytman]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

I hadn't seen that article before, but thanks for posting it. That boat ended up looking fabulous. The two boats I have to do are white and aren't in quite that neglected...well, one of them isn't and I think the other one isn't as well, but it's been awhile since I seen it last. Both are walk-around cuddy cabins: 21' Trophy with an outboard, and 25' Baha Cruiser I/O.

I have several of those 6.5" maroon cutting pads. Knowing how hard gel-coat is compared to clear-coat, I chose this very pad on my first ever detail, here: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/44177-ranger-bass-boat-minor-scratch-removal.html

A quick comment on those cutting pads that I caught in that thread: "Now, many of you know that we caution against use of a cutting pad on a D/A, but that's when dealing with automotive paint."

Would you mind to elaborate on that (above)comment from that thread? I mean, being new to detailing when I started on that boat (I had just bought my first pads at that time) I figured out on my own that these pads were very coarse and had potential to generate a lot of heat on paint, but that may work perfect on gel-coat. Of coarse I was using my G110V2 and didn't realy plan on using a rotary on that small of a boat.

Can you also elaborate on the similarities between M45 and M07? I know virtually nothing of Meguiar's Marine line of products. I've often thought that M07 doesn't contain any abrasives, but rather is loaded with polishing oils. If I'm correct (please inform me if I've misunderstood something) how does M45 compare?

That was a great write-up on that boat. I have some other comments about some other items I noticed in that thread, but I'll start new threads in regard to those items.

[Murr1525]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

A DA wont generate much heat. It is the coarseness, and the chance of leaving swirls/hazing behind on the auto paint. Sometimes it ends up needed, but that is rare. When Meguiars recomends something, it is because it will work in 95% or so of situations with out leaving any hazing, other issues behind for a regular consumer.

M7 and M45 will be pretty similar. Just getting a pure oil product into the marine line.

[Hoytman]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

A DA wont generate much heat. It is the coarseness, and the chance of leaving swirls/hazing behind on the auto paint. Sometimes it ends up needed, but that is rare. When Meguiars recomends something, it is because it will work in 95% or so of situations with out leaving any hazing, other issues behind for a regular consumer.

I understand what you're saying. However, what you said, and what was said in the statement I referenced are two completely different statements altogether...

INSTANT EDIT: (LOL!!!)

...Wait a minute! I think I mis-understood. I was thinking of not using it with a DA because of heat...but instead it's marring that's the issue and that makes more sense. Okay! I must have mis-read that for sure. I kept thinking, "Well, they just said don't use the cutting pad on a DA because of generated heat, and now they're trying it on a rotary." Something didn't transfer correctly from my eyes to my brain on that one. Thanks for pointing it out. I finally relized what you were saying after I had begun typing a response. LOL!

[Hoytman]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

I hadn't seen that article before, but thanks for posting it. That boat ended up looking fabulous. The two boats I have to do are white and aren't in quite that neglected...well, one of them isn't and I think the other one isn't as well, but it's been awhile since I seen it last. Both are walk-around cuddy cabins: 21' Trophy with an outboard, and 25' Baha Cruiser I/O.

I have several of those 6.5" maroon cutting pads. Knowing how hard gel-coat is compared to clear-coat, I chose this very pad on my first ever detail, here: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/44177-ranger-bass-boat-minor-scratch-removal.html

A quick comment on those cutting pads that I caught in that thread: "Now, many of you know that we caution against use of a cutting pad on a D/A, but that's when dealing with automotive paint."

Would you mind to elaborate on that (above)comment from that thread? I mean, being new to detailing when I started on that boat (I had just bought my first pads at that time) I figured out on my own that these pads were very coarse and had potential to generate a lot of heat on paint, but that may work perfect on gel-coat. Of coarse I was using my G110V2 and didn't realy plan on using a rotary on that small of a boat.

Can you also elaborate on the similarities between M45 and M07? I know virtually nothing of Meguiar's Marine line of products. I've often thought that M07 doesn't contain any abrasives, but rather is loaded with polishing oils. If I'm correct (please inform me if I've misunderstood something) how does M45 compare?

That was a great write-up on that boat. I have some other comments about some other items I noticed in that thread, but I'll start new threads in regard to those items.

Bump

[97t-bird]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

I use quite frequently on boats #85 on wool pad. Follow that with #205 or #3 machine glaze on a polishing pad and it will look great and last, as long as you put a wax over it. #66 quick detailer seems to break up light oxidation very easily, with decent durability. On boats that aren't bad and just need a little bit of clarity use #205 on wool pad, follow that with #205 again or #3 on a polishing pad, then wax I like #21 and seems to last through our summers here in MD on the boats as long as you don't wash with anything harsh (I like shampoo plus) and a quick wipe down with the X-press spray was every other week or so. #20 works well on boats as well.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Marine vs Automotive

OK, it looks like you've got the burgundy-pad-on-a-DA-caution sorted out, so that's great. Yes, it's the coarseness of the pad that can easily micro mar automotive paint, but gel is a different story. The real high heat generation at the pad to paint (or pad to gel coat) interface comes with a rotary buffer, not a DA. And on a rotary you'll generate a lot of heat really fast with a foam cutting pad.

M45 and M07 are very closely related and you are spot on regarding the lack of abrasives in them. On badly dried out gel coat it often helps to apply one of these before getting on with the heavy cutting as they will act as a lubricant on the otherwise very dry surface.