What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

[asalah]

I guess the title says it all...

I've seen the training video for Meguiar's, and they were using M80, M83, M84, and M85 for polishing and compounding
Now I see more and more people moving the (newer ?!) M105, M205, and M07 combinations...

1. Is there any technical/practical differences between using those 2 different lines of products ???
2. I've already ordered several gallons from the (old ?) series (M80, M83, M84, M85) for my detailing center...
Any need to order M105 for example ??
3. Is the M105 stronger than M85 ? If yes... Then is the M85 "safer" ? or it's more or less depending on how tough is the paint condition ?

Regards

[asalah]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

And I also mean the M02, M205, ... etc.

Are these all replacements for the M8x series ?

[wifpd4]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

Here is some reading until an expert joins this discussion:

http://www.autodetailingsolutions.net/m8012.html

http://www.autodetailingsolutions.net/m8312.html

http://www.autodetailingsolutions.net/m8412.html

http://www.autodetailingsolutions.net/m8512.html

http://www.autodetailingsolutions.net/m10512.html

http://www.autodetailingsolutions.net/m20512.html

http://www.autodetailingsolutions.net/m0716.html

Notice the differences in method of application, abrasive technology and whether paint shop safe.

As I mentioned earlier, some knowledgeable people will join this conversation shortly.

[Murr1525]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

M07 is about the oldest product made...

[asalah]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

Thanks all for stopping by....
I'm more concerned with the high level differences between the 2 families (if they're really 2 different families), rather than the details of each product in the family

I personally see many overlaps in specs/functionality in several Meguiar's products... Or maybe it's a documentation problem

[Michael Stoops]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

Well, you've almost got them sorted by "old school vs new school" with the exception of M07 - that product has been around for maybe 50 years, give or take.

But looking at M85/M84/M83/M82/M80, all of which utilize a diminishing abrasive, compared to M105/M95/M205 that use SMAT abrasives, the differences go deeper than simply the abrasives.

Long time professional users can be fiercely loyal to products and processes, no matter how much better, faster, etc the newer products might be. M105 (and to some extent M95 - but more on that product in a bit) not only offers more cut than M85 but it will almost always leave a nicer finish in the process. But the cost of M105 is much higher than that of M85. In parts of the world where hourly pay rates are high, it makes sense to use a faster cutting product even if the cost of entry is higher - the time savings can easily make up the difference. But in parts of the world where labor is very inexpensive, time considerations aren't as great and the cost savings of the product alone is huge.

Getting back to those long time, old school body shop guys: some like a product that has some drag to the feel when using it, others like something a bit more slick. To some extent, with some individuals, even the color of the product will have an influence on them. So when we introduced M105, a white product with a bit of a slick feel to it, the guys who like a tan colored product with a draggy feel would flat out tell us that M105 didn't work. They weren't willing to adapt their technique so the product didn't stand a chance. This isn't a dig against those guys, that's just the way they work. We talk to guys all the time who will tell us things like "I've been doing this for 35 years, I know what I'm doing". We have no doubt that's true, and that these guys do outstanding work. But some people just don't like change, not one little bit. So enter M95 - same SMAT abrasive technology found in M105, but with a tan color and a bit more of a drag type feel to it. Suddenly, for those resistant to change, we've got a winner.

But back to the bigger picture. M105/M205 can usually do in two steps, and in much less time, what M85/M83/M82 would do in three. M105 can also be used quite successfully on a DA, but M85/M84 don't play well with that tool at all. Don't even bother trying it! As to your question about M85 maybe being "safer" than M105, the short answer is "no". In fact, since M85 is a diminishing abrasive product you have to watch how you cover a given work area with it. As the abrasives break down they lose cut, obviously, so if you don't work it thoroughly and evenly over a given area you'll get an inconsistent finish. Also, if you short cycle M85 or M84 (ie, you don't work them long enough to fully break down the abrasives) you end up scouring the finish quite noticeably. Another difference between the two groups is that the "old school" products being perhaps a bit more user friendly on older single stage paints, especially when they're pretty dried out. If you've ever used M105 on badly dried out paint, whether single stage or clear coat, you know what we mean. That's not always the case, but it can be. And the newer products probably give a better overall user experience and faster results on modern, harder clear coats.

So while they all do essentially the same thing, we liken them to a mechanics tool box; a good mechanic has a wide assortment of wrenches, and even they all do essentially the same thing (tighten or loosen a nut or bolt) not all of those nuts and bolts are created equal. And not all paint systems are created equal, nor are all operators.

[asalah]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

Michael, thanks very much for the detail explanation...

One more question though...
Is the M105 one solution for all paint conditions/colors ?

I mean in the old school, we used to choose the product to use from the M8x scale according to the paint condition and color
Sometimes we use M85 then M84 then M80
Sometimes M84 then M83 then M80
Sometimes only M83
Sometimes only M80

With the different types of pads...

Can we replace all products from M80 until M85 with only M105 followed by M205 for all paint conditions??

I guess you've already said that... Probably I cant believe it that easily

[Shawn T.]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

Kind of.........

If you find yourself facing dried out single stage or clear coat then M105 will dust like crazy and be sucked into the paint. It's really a burden. This is where the M83/M80 combo work amazingly as they have enough oils to gorge the paint, make it healthy and correct it.

[ethereal45]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

Very informative post Mr. Stoops!

[Michael Stoops]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

Michael, thanks very much for the detail explanation...

One more question though...
Is the M105 one solution for all paint conditions/colors ?

I mean in the old school, we used to choose the product to use from the M8x scale according to the paint condition and color
Sometimes we use M85 then M84 then M80
Sometimes M84 then M83 then M80
Sometimes only M83
Sometimes only M80

With the different types of pads...

Can we replace all products from M80 until M85 with only M105 followed by M205 for all paint conditions??

I guess you've already said that... Probably I cant believe it that easily

Apologies for the late response here.

No, M105 is not the one solution for all paint conditions/colors - quite frankly, nothing is. M105 was developed for use on fresh paint via rotary buffer. Yes, we have tweaked the formula slightly to make it a bit more user friendly on a DA, but we could only go so far with that tweak before seriously compromising what M105 is really for. It also works great on new factory paint, but start playing with it on older, dried out clear coats and it may well prove to be too dry a product for that application. What can happen in that case is not just a heavy amount of dust, but possibly even a gumming up of the product on surface of the paint. While rare, in extreme cases it can happen.

Keep in mind, too, that M105 is the most aggressive compound we make. So for a vehicle with just fairly routine swirls, it's probably overkill and way too aggressive. On a car where M80 or M83 has been sufficient in the past to remove these defects, why move up to something so much more potent when those much less aggressive products do the job?

So with regard to your question "Can we replace all products from M80 until M85 with only M105 followed by M205 for all paint conditions??" the answer is a definite and resounding "no".

[asalah]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

Cool

Thanks for the response and the detailed explanation

[Alfisti]

Similar question

I have a question on a similar subject.

I'm running out of M80 and need to know if M205 would offer a similar cut to replace it. If M205 is gentler I'II replenish my M80.

[Marc08EX]

Re: Similar question

I have a question on a similar subject.

I'm running out of M80 and need to know if M205 would offer a similar cut to replace it. If M205 is gentler I'II replenish my M80.

I could be wrong but I think that the cut between M80 and M205 is similar, if not the same. When you look at their strength in the cutting scale, they're both sitting at level 4. The main difference between the two is that the former using DAT (Diminishing Abrasives) and the latter uses SMAT (super micro abrasives).

[Michael Stoops]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

As Marc points out, the cut is very similar but the two products achieve that cut via different methods. M80 might be a better choice if you're working on older single stage paint but on a modern clear coat M205 is hard to beat. The SMAT abrasives in it do a very long toward improving the clarity of a modern clear coat, and if it's a metallic paint it can really make that finish pop. If you haven't tried it yet you really should do yourself a favor.

[Alfisti]

Re: What's the difference between M80, M84, and M85 versus M105, M205, and M07 ???

Thanks for the prompt replies.

Michael, I have Ultimate Polish and i know it's not as strong as M205. If M205 is a 4, what would UP be? Is is more like M82?