Announcement

**Mike Pennington** · Mar 16, 2005, 08:16 AM

Hi skyguyz...

Just to chime in a bit...

All of our 80 series products, including M-82, are water based. M-82 is also a cleaner / polish.

M-82 is a great product for removing very light swirls, but if it is not strong enough that is when you jump to M-80 or even M-83, which are more aggressive cleaner / polishes. Keep in mind, the numbers do not automatically represent abrasive levels...Follow the red bar chart that is on the 80 series bottles....

You could follow with a coat of #7, but you could also jump straight from M-82, M-83, or even M-80 straight to a protective product, such as NXT Generation Tech Wax. The coat of #7 is optional, and depending on your time goals, it is up to you...

Mike

**Mike Phillips** · Mar 16, 2005, 08:17 AM

Hi skyguyz,

I read all the time about people discussing fillers and recently I tested a fairly abrasive compound, (not ours), and it left the finish of our black Pilot swirled and scoured. I then removed the swirls and scouring with M83/W-8006/G100 followed by M80/W-8006/G100 and then afterwards washed the finish three times with a strong solution of a popular detergent dish soap.

I then wiped the finish down with All Purpose Cleaner, followed by an alcohol glass cleaner and then rewashed with the strong detergent dish washing solution to do my very best to insure that if there was any filling taking place, that the ingredients doing the filling would be removed and reveal the true condition of the finish.

I have about a half a dozen photos taken with my Sony FD97 2.1 mega pixel camera which is very good at capturing swirls, (better than my Cannon Digital Rebel at 6.3 mega pixels).

Anyway, here's one shot as best as I could get the sun to reflect off the hood while I stood on a ladder and shot down on it.

The below photo is cropped at 600 by 600 pixels out of the original and untouched in any other way.

The finish was virtually flawless in direct sunlight and out of the sun it looked like I had just waxed it.

Note: This is after multiple detergent washing and chemical stripping.

I will say I purposefully did my very best at removing the swirls with the M83 and then bringing the finish up to its max potential with the M80 as the goal was to remove the swirls completely, not fill them in.

There were a few very light swirls here and there, were talking almost nothing, but it's completely possible they could have been instilled during the washing with dish soap after the polishing process or the chemical stripping process, although I used new, premium quality wash mitts and for the washing process.

The point is this, using M83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish and M80 Speed Glaze I was able to remove the swirls instilled by another companies compound and leave a virtually flawless finish in direct sun after washing and with no glaze, polish or wax added.

So it can be done. Adding a coating of a pure polish like Deep Crystal Polish or a wax like Gold Class or NXT Tech Wax would act to take these results over the top.

If you're not seeing these kind of results, then we need to back up and look at your products and your techniques.

I must say, after doing my best to destroy the finish with detergent soap and chemical wiping, I was impressed.

**skyguyz** · Mar 16, 2005, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Hi skyguyz,

I read all the time about people discussing fillers and recently I tested a fairly abrasive compound, (not ours), and it left the finish of our black Pilot swirled and scoured. I then removed the swirls and scouring with M83/W-8006/G100 followed by M80/W-8006/G100 and then afterwards washed the finish three times with a strong solution of a popular detergent dish soap.

I then wiped the finish down with All Purpose Cleaner, followed by an alcohol glass cleaner and then rewashed with the strong detergent dish washing solution to do my very best to insure that if there was any filling taking place, that the ingredients doing the filling would be removed and reveal the true condition of the finish.

I have about a half a dozen photos taken with my Sony FD97 2.1 mega pixel camera which is very good at capturing swirls, (better than my Cannon Digital Rebel at 6.3 mega pixels).

Anyway, here's one shot as best as I could get the sun to reflect off the hood while I stood on a ladder and shot down on it.

The below photo is cropped at 600 by 600 pixels out of the original and untouched in any other way.

The finish was virtually flawless in direct sunlight and out of the sun it looked like I had just waxed it.

Note: This is after multiple detergent washing and chemical stripping.

I will say I purposefully did my very best at removing the swirls with the M83 and then bringing the finish up to its max potential with the M80 as the goal was to remove the swirls completely, not fill them in.

There were a few very light swirls here and there, were talking almost nothing, but it's completely possible they could have been instilled during the washing with dish soap after the polishing process or the chemical stripping process, although I used new, premium quality wash mitts and for the washing process.

The point is this, using M83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish and M80 Speed Glaze I was able to remove the swirls instilled by another companies compound and leave a virtually flawless finish in direct sun after washing and with no glaze, polish or wax added.

So it can be done. Adding a coating of a pure polish like Deep Crystal Polish or a wax like Gold Class or NXT Tech Wax would act to take these results over the top.

If you're not seeing these kind of results, then we need to back up and look at your products and your techniques.

I must say, after doing my best to destroy the finish with detergent soap and chemical wiping, I was impressed.

Mike,

Thank you so much for the great detailed explanation. No pun intended.

here are some thoughts as to why my detail job is not going as well as planned:

1-I'm a newbee
2-I'm a newbee
3-I'm a newbee
4-technique with the PC 7424, (read all I could find about the PC)
5-pad selection, (using Edge 2000 yellow light cut with the Menzerna IP. yes/no maybe? pads are good, it's me.)
6-understanding the chemical breakdown point of polishes
7-should have used Meg's 80 vs. Meg's #82
8-trying to work on black paint that is need of some serious help. (rock hard Audi clearcoat)
9-too many to list

If you could help me get by this phase of detailing I feel the rest is going to go good. Yes I viewed in detail your post am inclined to go with Meg's 80 now seeing that the Menzerna IP & Meg's # 82 didn't produce the results expected.

In your post you did a lot of washing after polishing. Is this step a big benefit to where I'm at?

I plan on Meg's #9 Swirl remover 2.0 next, yes/no/maybe/
then Meg's Show car glaze #7, yes/no/maybe?

NXT wax
Maybe increase the pad to a medium cut?

Audi detail is on hold until further research/feedback is recieved.

Pix of the finish from hell (after Menzerna IP & Meg's 82):

**Mike Phillips** · Mar 16, 2005, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by skyguyz
Mike,

Thank you so much for the great detailed explanation. No pun intended.

here are some thoughts as to why my detail job is not going as well as planned:

1-I'm a newbie
2-I'm a newbie
3-I'm a newbie

Hey, we all start at the same place and that's at the beginning, and that's what Meguiar's is here for, to do our best to help you.

4-technique with the PC 7424, (read all I could find about the PC)

Technique is vital with this tool and practice makes perfect. Black colors show defects the best so working on dark colored cars requires the most skill to produce the best results. That's not to say a person shouldn't try to do their best on all colors, it's just black is going to reveal everything.

5-pad selection, (using Edge 2000 yellow light cut with the Menzerna IP. yes/no maybe? pads are good, it's me.)

I haven't used that pad so I cannot speak for it. I have used Meguiar's foam pads since the early 1980's and have always had good luck with them. The W-8006 foam polishing pad is pretty hard to beat for use with the G100 to remove defects with one of our cleaner/polishes.

6-understanding the chemical breakdown point of polishes

Experience helps here. You need to buff the product long enough to completely have broken down the diminishing abrasives, but we don't recommend buffing to a dry buff. I see people on other forums post this technique, however, it is not a Meguiar's recommendation or technique. The product should still be a liquid film on the surface and not have turned to dust.

7-should have used Meg's 80 vs. Meg's #82

M80 has more cleaning action. I would highly recommend purchasing some of this and giving it a try.

8-trying to work on black paint that is need of some serious help. (rock hard Audi clearcoat)

Hard paints are the hardest to work defects out of and it often requires a rotary buffer and a product like our M84 Compound Power Cleaner and our W-7006 foam cutting pad.

In your post you did a lot of washing after polishing. Is this step a big benefit to where I'm at?

Slow down. First of all, I lifted much of that post from a post on Autopia where the discussion was about fillers. There seems to be a lot of mis-information about the role of the rich lubricating film Meguiar's uses to buffer, or cushion the abrading process of our diminishing abrasives. It is this rich lubricating film that enables you to create a flawless finish without scouring, swirling or scratching the paint.

It's easy for someone hiding behind a nickname on a discussion forum to state a product contains fillers, when in fact they know not what they speak about. The reason I washed the finish after polishing was to demonstrate that the swirls had been removed, not merely filled in. This is why when you look at the picture of the black hood with the sun reflecting off it it, there are no swirls because the M83 and the M80 completely removed them, they did not merely fill them in and this is what I was trying to demonstrate.

As a normal course of polishing paint, you don't need to wash or wipe the finish down after polishing as Meguiar's polishes perfectly prepare the paint for application of wax. In the Meguiar's system, each step moves your results forward in the process where the goal is a crystal clear, swirl free, drop dead gorgeous finish.

Washing with dish soap or wiping down with Isopropyl Alcohol and water before applying their waxes is called working backwards and doesn't make sense if the goal is to create beauty. Let those other people work backwards, your goal should be to focus on doing your best work and that means working smarter, not harder.

I plan on Meg's #9 Swirl remover 2.0 next, yes/no/maybe/ then Meg's Show car glaze #7, yes/no/maybe?

Then NXT wax

For the Audi paint you're working on, follow these basic steps

Washing
Before detailing your car, first do an extremely good job of washing it. Remove all the dirt from all the nooks and crannies. This prevents any small abrasive dirt particle from entering into the machine polishing process and potentially instilling a swirl. Get the Car Sparkling Clean to start with and everything will be downhill after that.

Claying
After that clay the car, at least the horizontal surfaces. Again, do a good job of claying to insure you remove all above surface contaminants. The level of gloss you can achieve from your car's finish is mostly determined by how smooth you can make your paint. Claying will make your car's finish as smooth as glass.

After washing and and claying the car, and the car is all dry and ready to work on, the first thing you should do is to tape off any parts of the car you want to protect from splatter or prevent getting any product onto. Here's an example of a 1991 BMW taped off for machine polishing.

Now move onto the cleaning step.

Cleaning
Cleaning is different than washing. Cleaning is removing both above surface defects like oxidation and below surface defects like swirls, scratches, etchings, and dirt that has embedded itself under the surface. Choose the appropriate paint cleaner for the condition of your car's finish and your application process. If you're unsure of which paint cleaner or cleaner/polish is right for your car, describe your car and if possible post a picture and we'll be glad to make some recommendations.

Polishing
Polishing after removing the defects is typically using a pure polish that is non-abrasive to restore brilliant high gloss and deep, dark reflections. This is an optional step and one best used on medium to dark colored car.

Protecting
This is where you apply your choice of wax or paint protectant. Adding a layer or two of wax creates a sacrificial-barrier on your car's paint to protect it and also add shine and gloss. Generally, two thin coats will insure even coverage with a uniform appearance.

Maintaining
Maintaining is the use of products like a quick detailer or a spray wax to maintain that "Just detailed look" in-between regular washings, and the regular application of a normal coat of wax.

Meguiar's always teaches,

"Always use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

The idea is to see if you can restore an acceptable finish using the least aggressive product. Starting with a mild paint cleaner or cleaner/polish and testing to see what can accomplished with it is the safe way to learn which product you will need to safely remove the defects. If the first products you try don't do the job, you can always substitute a more aggressive product.

The most aggressive you can go with Meguiar's products and a dual action polisher is using our #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish and our W-8006 foam pad on the 5.0 setting. Getting any more aggressive than this can cause hazing of the finish and if the defects are serious enough to require a more aggressive product then you should use a rotary buffer or take it to a professional who is experienced with the rotary buffer.

When it comes to removing swirls and other defects using the dual action polisher, here are two products that work really well,

#80 Speed Glaze
#83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish

In keeping with Meguiar's philosophy of using the least aggressive product to get the job done, if you are unfamiliar with these products and/or your car's paint, then always perform "Test Spot" to a small are first before attempting to do the entire car.

"If you cannot make one small area look good with your prescribed products and process, then you will not be able to make the entire car look good"

Makes sense huh?

To do a test spot, start out with the #80 Speed Glaze with a W-8006 foam polishing pad and buff for 3-4 minutes.

When cleaning paint with the dual action polisher, you want to map out in your minds eye a section or area about 16" square or rectangle, or whatever fit's your car's body panels shape. The idea is you don't want to try to do to much of an area at one time or you will not get good results. The dual action polisher is gentle in it's cleaning and polishing action and for this reason, trying to work on too large an area at one time will not remove enough paint to remove any defects.

Note: To remove a below surface defect, you must remove some paint until the highest points of the surface are level with the lowest depths of the defect you're trying to remove. This means removing paint. This also means how deep of a defect you can remove is determined by how thick you paint is. Often times you can improve a defect, but not completely remove the defect as to do so would remove to much paint and in the case of a clear coat, expose the color coat and in the case of a non-clear coat finish, you will expose the primer under the color coat. How much paint you can remove is hard to know because you can never know exactly how much working film-build you have to work with. Experience in this area helps a lot and sometimes luck is a factor to. Remember this, light swirls are generally pretty safe to remove, but deep scratches like key scratches etc. you will probably be better off merely improving the way they look so they don't stand out like a sore thumb, the to attempt to completely remove them.

When using the dual action polisher to remove defects, map out a section to work in your minds eye. Check the speed setting on the variable speed adjuster. For removing defects you usually need to be around the 4.5 to 5.0 setting. Meguiar's never recommends running the polisher faster than the 5.0 setting as these higher speed settings produce an oscillating action that is too violent in it's speed and motion and this combined with time creates heat and the synergy of all these factors will loosen the Velcro material attached to the foam. Keep your speed settings at 5.0 or below.

After applying some product to your foam pad, (already attached to the polisher), place the face of the foam pad onto the finish and then turn the polisher on. DO NOT turn the polisher on before it has come into contact with the foam pad or your will sling product all over the place and then you'll get to clean the splatter up instead or work on your car's finish. Once you have turned the polisher on, move the polisher around to spread out your product over the area you are going to work. This is important. What you're trying to do here is to spread-out your product so that you have a film of fresh product spread out over the surface you're going to work. THEN begin to work the product against the finish using a slow arm speed, moving the polisher back and forth over the section and overlapping your passes by 50%. You should run the polisher in a couple of different directions, always with overlapping motions, to insure even cleaning over the entire surface.

Note: The reason you want to spread your freshly applied product out over the section you're going to work is because if you turn the polisher on and immediately begin to work in one place, as you're working the product against the finish the diminishing abrasives are breaking down. As you continue to move around the area you're working, by the time you get to the last portion of the area you're working, you will be using a much less aggressive product than when you started out because all the while the diminishing abrasives have been breaking down. If when you first start out you take a few moments to spread the freshly applied product around over the entire section you're going to work, and then go back to your start point, you will have fresh product ready to be worked into the finish as you move from one area to the other.

Does that makes sense?

After you have buffed the area for 3-4 minutes, (how long you buff can be relative to the temperature and humidity in your area, also the type of paint your working on and the amount of product you applied. The important thing is that you buffed long enough to work the product against the finish and have broken the diminishing abrasives down, but you have not buffed to long and buffed to a dry buff. This is something that is hard to explain with a keyboard and a computer monitor and is really something that first-hand experience will teach you), stop buffing, wipe off the residue and inspect the results in two kinds of light, (if possible). If your results look good and are acceptable to you, then repeat this process, (#80 Speed Glaze with the W-8006 foam pad on the 4.5 to 5.0 setting), and after removing all of the residue you can then go on to the waxing step.

If your results don't look good, and this combination of products is not removing as many of the swirls and scratches as you would like, then try repeating the above to the same test section using the #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish. Use a new clean W-8006 foam polishing pad for this step, or a W-8006 foam polishing pad that you have previously used with the #83.

Here's a suggestion
Use a permanent marker to mark the back of your buffing pads with the product number you're using with them so you don't mix different products onto different pads.

After buffing the test section on the 5.0 setting remove the excess product and re-polish the same area with the #80 Speed Glaze and the W-8006 pad marked and used with this product. Repeat the same procedure as originally outlined for doing the test spot with the #80 above. After you are finished buffing this area, remove the residue and inspect your results again in two kinds of light if possible.

The goal of coarse is that now your car's finish will look great! and be ready for you choice of wax. If your car's finish does look great and meets your expectations then repeat this 2-step cleaning approach to the entire car. If not then chances are very good to remove the defects and meet you requirements the finish will need to be professionally cleaned and polished using a rotary buffer by an experienced professional.

**Mike Phillips** · Mar 16, 2005, 09:59 AM

Also remember, the dual action polisher is not always going to fix everything. Often times the best tool for the job is a rotary buffer and in some cases, the paint cannot be fixed at all.

Check out this thread,

PC+83 not "cutting" it!

**skyguyz** · Mar 16, 2005, 01:11 PM

tried Meg's #83 DACP

OK, so here we go. The combo of Menzerna IP followed by Meg's 82 wasen't cutting it to the degree I was happy with. I used Meg's #83 DACP, (right side of tape) and well it looks better? This the most aggressive I'll go short of havong a professional with a rotary remove swirls, etc.

Menzerna IP followed by Meg's 82 sun spot left side

Meg's #83 DACP, right side sun spot

I think now I can continue with Megs #83 and finish the detail job.

Many thanks to CharlesW & Mike Phillips

**romulus** · Mar 16, 2005, 01:22 PM

skyguyz,
Good job!

Glad to see that you were able to try #83, specially with such a hard Audi paint. Since you have already #7 (show car glaze) just remember applying a thin coat after by hand. #83 does not have TS oils.
Cheers

**Mike Phillips** · Mar 16, 2005, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by romulus
skyguyz,
Good job! Glad to see that you were able to try #83, specially with such a hard Audi paint. Since you have already #7 (show car glaze) just remember applying a thin coat after by hand. #83 does not have TS oils.
Cheers

Actually, their are some TS conditioners in all of the 80's series products.

**skyguyz** · Mar 16, 2005, 02:36 PM

Baby steps

Which would you choose as the next step after Meg's #83 (black Audi above)

Meg's Swirl Free polish?

Meg's Mirror glaze Show car glaze #7

or

Meg's Mirror Glaze #9 Swirl remover 2.0

*I have all three.

I'm leaning towards show car glaze #7,

Wax to follow!

Thanks in advance

**romulus** · Mar 16, 2005, 02:39 PM

Oh I see. I am guessing that #80 has more conditioner oils than #83 because it looks and feels simmilar to #7. But then again I am still learning from the pros

"you always learn something new every day"

**scrub** · Mar 16, 2005, 04:00 PM

skyguyz

Thanks for the great before and afters using #83. Awesome work. I thought you said you were a newb!

Mike,

I would like to know the polish you used that swirled the pilot. I recently purhcased some products and want to make sure their not the same products. Please PM.

**Mike Phillips** · Mar 16, 2005, 04:56 PM

Re: Baby steps

Originally posted by skyguyz
Which would you choose as the next step after Meg's #83 (black Audi above)

Meg's Swirl Free polish?
Meg's Mirror glaze Show car glaze #7
Meg's Mirror Glaze #9 Swirl remover 2.0

*I have all three.

I'm leaning towards show car glaze #7. Wax to follow!

Thanks in advance

Out of those three products, in this order,

M82 Swirl Free Polish
M09 Swirl Remover 2.0

Use these with a clean, dedicated W-8006 foam polishing pad on the 4.5 to 5.0 setting.

Then go to wax.

Announcement

Meg's #82 Vs Menzerna IP

Meg's #82 Vs Menzerna IP

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