Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

[LeMarque]

On late model cars, I'm guessing the body is baked in something like an infrared oven @ very high temps.

So does using something like ScratchX or SWIRLX remove the clear coat? And maybe some of the paint?

[Murr1525]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

Well... yes, yes, and yes...

The paint will be baked on at the factory.

But if a paint cleaner like SwirlX, or ScratchX is applied with some passion to remove defects, paint will be removed. And clear coat is just paint.

Remember the wind will remove a few molecules of paint whenever it blows....

[LeMarque]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

Thanks for the reply Murr1525

So assuming a vehicle that's been thru an automatic car wash or has been buffed incorrectly, etc. and the customer rolls into your shop ( I'm thinking about getting into the business)

From what I've seen, that vehicle has swirls from hood to trunk. Polishing to remove the swirls removes much of the clear coat or just x.mils(?)

Which then reduces the UV protection, and depth and gloss of the paint to fade. Which now requires the vehicle to be routinely waxed or the paint has a greater chance of fading/deteriorating Y/N?

Just trying to understand the downside of removing swirls

[imz4n]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

IMHO, scratches once removed and the customer is schooled as to what causes them, they should not return. I do not need to use Scratch X but maybe once every other year if then. If you go into the business, part of the job would also include the customer schooling.

[LeMarque]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

Thanks guys

getting my head wrapped around it now.

[Murr1525]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

When in business, you would probably want to look into a paint thickness gauge, so you can tell how thin the paint might be, esp on old cars.

You would have to look around, but I am sure someone on here has mentioned what paint thicknesses they feel ok working on, or try to avoid.

[TOGWT]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

When in business, you would probably want to look into a paint thickness gauge, so you can tell how thin the paint might be, esp on old cars.

You would have to look around, but I am sure someone on here has mentioned what paint thicknesses they feel ok working on, or try to avoid.

[COLOR="#0000CD"]A paint thickness reading of 100

[Murr1525]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

I think something got cut off there....

[The Dodge]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

So does using something like ScratchX or SWIRLX remove the clear coat? And maybe some of the paint?

Excellent question LeMarque. . . .I never even thought about that!!

But if a paint cleaner like SwirlX, or ScratchX is applied with some passion to remove defects, paint will be removed. And clear coat is just paint.

Really, you are removing clear coat when you use SwirlX or ScratchX. . . .and the repercussions of that are, you will have less clear coat protection??? I thought clear coat was a sealer and protector for the paint? I understands that clear coat is applied like a paint, but isn't different than paint?

[Murr1525]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

Really, you are removing clear coat when you use SwirlX or ScratchX. . . .and the repercussions of that are, you will have less clear coat protection??? I thought clear coat was a sealer and protector for the paint? I understands that clear coat is applied like a paint, but isn't different than paint?

No, the 'clear coat' is just a layer of paint with no pigment in it.

Even though swirls may look terrible, they are most often very very shallow, and you get a bit of a 'magnification' effect. So removing the bad ones once with a stronger product, and then using milder products in the future is quite safe.

If you had to use a strong cleaner every month or two, yeah, you may end up with problems. You should be looking at how the swirls are getting in there.

And then if stuff is real bad, or the scratches are deep, or paint is extremely thin, you may only be able to improve things, not remove them completely.

[LeMarque]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

When in business, you would probably want to look into a paint thickness gauge, so you can tell how thin the paint might be, esp on old cars.

You would have to look around, but I am sure someone on here has mentioned what paint thicknesses they feel ok working on, or try to avoid.

Yup - it's on my wish list.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

Ah, the old "clear coat vs paint" discussion.

Back in the days when everything was painted in a single stage process the color pigments would be ravaged by the elements - red cars would turn pink, dark blue cars would become light blue, etc. A good, thorough and deep cleaning would remove some or all of this oxidation and restore the color. This oxidation was and is essentially a below surface defect, so it gets grouped together with other below surface defects like swirls, fine scratches, etchings from bird droppings, stains, etc. All of these have created defects that reach deeper than the surface of the paint, so the only way to correct them is to remove a bit of the surrounding paint and, basically, level it out. The image below gives a good representation of this:




With a modern clear coat paint system we still face all of these issues, with a couple of exceptions. First, with a clear coat paint system we don't really see "oxidation" in the sense we did with single stage paint. That is, you don't get that situation where red paint turns pink and white and chalky. What we do get, and it's really unfortunate, is a clear coat failure situation. Clear coat failure can at first look very similar to oxidized single stage, but the mechanics of what's happening is very different. In a clear coat failure situation the clear coat (which really is nothing more than clear paint) is either breaking up or it's delaminating from the color coat below it. This can happen for all kinds of reasons, including defects in the manufacturing process, but there is only one fix. Repaint the affected panel. Nope, you can not buff out clear coat failure and make the paint look pretty again like you could with oxidized single stage paint. It's really all down to the chemistry of the paint systems.

Further, in a clear coat paint system all of the gloss comes from the clear coat itself. This coating, which really is just a pigmentless paint (except for some tinted clears used in some OEM colors), provides not only the gloss but also the UV protection for the color coat below it, thus keeping things nice and shiny and retaining the original color for many years longer than a single stage paint system would. Incidentally, if you were to lose all of the clear and then tried to buff out the color coat to restore the gloss, you'd be fighting a losing battle; the color coat is not designed to hold a gloss, so it will fade back very quickly if left exposed. Yes, even if you compound it and wax it - what little gloss you can achieve will be very short lived.

This clear layer of paint can also pose some other visual annoyances. Look at the diagram above, specifically at the "scratches" part, and you'll see a very sharply defined triangle shape that makes up the scratch. Now, scratches vary in depth and severity. Obviously if someone keys your paint and removes enough paint to expose primer or worse, bare metal, then you've got a very serious situation on your hands. You can't just level that down to the lowest point in order to remove the scratch because that lowest point is primer, or bare metal. Your only choice is to..... well...... level the paint down to the lowest point and then spray fresh paint over it to restore the finish. But on the other end of the scratch spectrum are the super fine little scratches known as swirls, cobwebs, towel marks, holograms, etc. These are nothing more than very fine scratches in the paint, pure and simple. And in order to remove them you.... gulp.... remove some of the surrounding paint by leveling it down to the lowest point. Or do you?

Look at that diagram again. Those sharp edges are in clear paint, so they bounce light back at you almost like a prism would, so you get this very bright white light being reflected back at you - assuming you're looking at the paint in direct sunlight; in the shade the swirls seem to go away. Now, put that layer of clear paint on top of a black color coat and that white light reflected back at you has a very high contrast background and the swirls stand out like a sore thumb. But put swirls into the clear paint with a metallic silver color coat under it, and what happens? The reflected light isn't all that different than the color below it, so the contrast isn't as high. Add to that all the sparkly little metallic bits that are scattering light back at you in a random pattern and now you have a bunch of "background noise" that's also hindering your ability to see the fine scratches. Oh, they're still there, you just can't see them as easily.

So back to that "or do you?" question at the end of that earlier paragraph. Imagine if you could remove the sharp edges of those tiny little scratches so the light was no longer bent back at your eyes like a prism might do. No harsh light bouncing back means, effectively, the swirls are gone. Get it? These swirls, cobwebs, towel marks, etc are so incredibly tiny that you can't even begin to feel them (if you can feel the scratch, you've got a potentially serious issue to deal with, by the way) so to eliminate them means to remove an incredibly small amount of paint. And if rounding off those corners is what it takes to stop the harsh bounce of light, then even less paint needs to come off. And that's a lot of what's happening when you use a mildly abrasive product like SwirlX, Ultimate Compound, etc to remove swirls. In fact, when we take thickness measurements of the paint before and after removing swirls with a DA buffer, the difference readings are usually so insignificant as to be, well, insignificant.

Let's look at this a bit more closely. Factory paint is normally on the order of 5 to 6 mils thick (5 to 6 1000ths of an inch) with the clear being around 1.5 to 2 mils thick (1.5 to 2 1000ths of an inch). That doesn't sound like much, and it isn't. But the swirls you see are much shallower than that. We can remove them and not even measure a 0.1 mil loss of paint thickness - that's how shallow they are. That's how little paint you're taking off when DA correcting. Joe Fernandez (AKA Superior Shine here on MOL) did a great write up a few years back where he took measurements while going through various steps, from very gentle to very aggressive, and his findings should help to put your mind at ease about this whole "how much paint am I taking off" concern. Of significance in his write up is the step where he buffed with a rotary buffer, a 7000 series foam cutting pad, and M85 Diamond Cut Compound. This is waaaay more aggressive than what you'd be doing with a DA and Ultimate Compound, or even M105, and he recorded no change in paint thickness after doing so.

So, if you're doing pretty standard swirl removal with a DA or by hand, using proper technique and the right liquids, pads, speed settings, etc then you shouldn't be overly concerned about shorting the life expectancy of your paint. But if you find you need to go through this process several times a year, then you need to look at your washing, drying and maintenance processes. And that's a whole 'nother story.

[The Dodge]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

Thanks Michael for all the great information and the "great write up" link. . . .I will be reading that as soon as I finish this reply!!

[LeMarque]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

And that's a whole 'nother story.

More like an education. I'm at a loss for words to respond; 'cept to say Thanks very much.

Now to post whether a newbie should purchase the G110V2 or the PC 7424XP

[The Dodge]

Re: Doesn't polishing remove clear coat?

Now to post whether a newbie should purchase the G110V2 or the PC 7424XP

Ordered my G110v2 last week from AutoGeek.net. . . . .I tried a buddys 7424XP and his G110v2. . . .hands down the G110v2 is the way to go. . . .just my 5 cents!