A question?

[billd55]

I have seen many times on forums before and after pics of correction
detailing.Normally, the before pics show cobwebbing and swirl scratches.
The detailers normally use Dawn or a harsh cleaner to remove any old waxes, sealants, or glazes.


They assume this cleans and removes all these products off the clear coat
completely, and the scratches are on the clear coat itself, but I am not sure that is true.

Why? Well here is a quote from Micheal Stoops:

Carnauba waxes can be fairly easily washed off with even a mild detergent, synthetic polymers not so much. In fact, in our carnauba wax we utilize detergent resistant polymers to help with the longevity of the wax, to prevent it from simply being washed away.

So my question is this? It is not uncommon to have many coats of waxes and sealnts on cars, so does just one washing actually clean the surface
of the clear coat.? Could the scratches be from what was not removed , and not on the clear coat itself?

[Murr1525]

Re: A question?

You wont get a scratch or swirl in the wax, if that is what you mean. It will be in the paint.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: A question?

While a single wash with a dishwashing detergent may not remove all the wax/sealant on a vehicle, especially if the coat of wax/sealant is very fresh (hence, detergent resistant - not detergent proof), multiple washes will. Now, if you haven't waxed your car in several months then the little wax that is left isn't going to survive a thorough detergent washing.

It is not uncommon to have many coats of waxes and sealnts on cars, so does just one washing actually clean the surface
of the clear coat.? Could the scratches be from what was not removed , and not on the clear coat itself?

It sounds as though you're assuming "many coast of waxes and sealants" means "layering", and we've simply never bought into that concept. If you wax your car 4 times a year, you do not have 4 coats of wax on it - much of what was applied the first time is gone by the second application, much of the second application is gone by the time you apply the third, etc.

As stated above, a coat of wax applied several months ago is now extremely thin and likely very easy to remove with a single detergent wash. And even if you could truly layer a wax or sealant, even the folks who claim you can with their product will tell you that Dawn will strip it.

Now, as to whether or not the swirls you're seeing are in the wax and not in the paint, consider this: if they were just in the wax, then a Dawn wash and clay treatment should remove the vast majority of them. They don't. Not even close. And if they didn't get all of the swirls out, a simple cleaner wax would. It doesn't. Not even close.

Does that mean there's zero chance any swirls you see are actually in the sealant or wax instead of the paint? No, but it's unlikely since the coat of wax/sealant is just a few microns thin.

Generally what we see is some fine swirls being filled in and hidden by waxes and sealants. As that sacrificial barrier breaks down, the swirls become more visible. If the swirls were in the wax/sealant then they would become less noticeable as the wax wore off, not more.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

You wont get a scratch or swirl in the wax, if that is what you mean. It will be in the paint.
__________________


How do you know that for sure? I have seen many before pics of brand
new cars that are full of scratches. Are these in the paint?

[Murr1525]

Re: A question?

As mentioned by Mike, a 'layer' of wax is barely even there. Dont over-estimate what a wax can do... Its not like a clear bra. If you do 20 layers, you arent going to get a 1/4" inch of wax buildup, its still just barely there.

And yeah, the swirls in new cars are in the paint.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

Now, as to whether or not the swirls you're seeing are in the wax and not in the paint, consider this: if they were just in the wax, then a Dawn wash and clay treatment should remove the vast majority of them. They don't. Not even close. And if they didn't get all of the swirls out, a simple cleaner wax would. It doesn't. Not even close.

First, I am not saying that there could not be scratches in the clear coat, but it appears you assume they all are .

Second, your logic that a Dawn wash should remove the majority of the swirls does not make sense. From what I see most detailers let the soap just sit on the surface
believing that the soap will remove the wax, and from what I understand a claybar is not designed to remove wax.

You assume a car is waxed four times a year,and the wax wears off given time. Although ,that is not always the case. Many people are using products with a polycharger additive that resist break down from harsh soap washes, and follow it up with several coats of wax. Also, it appears that many people apply several
wax coats at one time . Finally,cars that have wax applied do not use Dawn to wash their cars, but a very mild soap that will not strip the wax.


Quote:

And if they didn't get all of the swirls out, a simple cleaner wax would. It doesn't. Not even close.


I really do not see how a cleaner wax would remove them either. You mention that you do not believe in layering wax, and I agree with that.

Although, let's consider this thought. The average person waxes his car, and the next day it rains and water spots appear. Are these spots on the clear coat itself,
or on the top part of the wax layer? Is the clearcoat itself damaged. No, but you see the spots.

If you use a car soap the wax will not strip right away, but over time it will. As it does, slowly these fine scratches will appear from washing. These are caused from a wash mit, or towel drying IMO. Is the wax or sealant gone? No, but I do not agree
that a Dawn wash, and claying a car will completely remove either.

[Murr1525]

Re: A question?

First, I am not saying that there could not be scratches in the clear coat, but it appears you assume they all are .

I guess it is pretty safe to say everyone here assumes they are...

Second, your logic that a Dawn wash should remove the majority of the swirls does not make sense. From what I see most detailers let the soap just sit on the surface
believing that the soap will remove the wax, and from what I understand a claybar is not designed to remove wax.

I think you mis-read that part. Mike is saying if the swirls were in the wax, then Dawn or clay or a cleaner/wax would remove the wax, and thus remove the swirls.

Because the swirls remain after the wax is gone, means the swirls were not in the wax.

You assume a car is waxed four times a year,and the wax wears off given time. Although ,that is not always the case. Many people are using products with a polycharger additive that resist break down from harsh soap washes, and follow it up with several coats of wax. Also, it appears that many people apply several
wax coats at one time . Finally,cars that have wax applied do not use Dawn to wash their cars, but a very mild soap that will not strip the wax.

This goes back to that the coat of wax is barely there. Even a brand new fresh coat is barely there. Some people have even registered here in the past asking if wax will protect against rock chips. Waxing your car is just not a physical barrier, like a clear bra would be.

Although, let's consider this thought. The average person waxes his car, and the next day it rains and water spots appear. Are these spots on the clear coat itself,
or on the top part of the wax layer? Is the clearcoat itself damaged. No, but you see the spots.

Dust sits on the car, and if it rains forms rings that sit on the car. (not counting hard water, acid rain, etc with chemical etching going on)

Swirls are places where something abrasive has come along and physically removed enough material to change how the light reflects, and you see the swirl. There just isnt enough wax there to make a physical barrier against abrasion.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

Because the swirls remain after the wax is gone, means the swirls were not in the wax.

You are assuming that the wax is gone, but how do you know that for sure? Wax does not bond to the paint, it sticks. It can smear and distort the shine by washing with a harsh soap.

Quote:
Swirls are places where something abrasive has come along and physically removed enough material to change how the light reflects, and you see the swirl.

That is correct. When a wash mit, or a towel comes in contact with the wax layer
it removes some of the wax which creates the fine scratches.

Quote:

There just isnt enough wax there to make a physical barrier against abrasion.

Well if that was the case IMO, then there should not be enough of a physical barrier to add shine, or beading water either. Why is it that cars that are not waxed do not have problems with swirl marks?

[3Fitty]

Re: A question?

Why is it that cars that are not waxed do not have problems with swirl marks?

Waxed cars, unwaxed cars can both have swirl marks.

Swirl marks are in the clear has nothing to do with the wax.

[Mike Bones]

Re: A question?

The only way to test out theory on this is to take a heavily swirled vehicle, document it, do a full correction, document it, wax, document it, let time pass and then strip the wax protection on it to see if swirls appear on the clear coat. If you're willing to test out your theory, I'm quite sure you'll get the answers you seek.

[wifpd4]

Re: A question?

Well if that was the case IMO, then there should not be enough of a physical barrier to add shine, or beading water either. Why is it that cars that are not waxed do not have problems with swirl marks?

Watch some of the Meguiar's videos. Especially the ones where they mask off sections of a hood to make a pattern. The beading is then very obvious in the waxed versus unwaxed areas.

In my opinion, wax is like a transparent mirror. Reflecting and shining, but showing whats below it.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote:

Waxed cars, unwaxed cars can both have swirl marks.

Swirl marks are in the clear has nothing to do with the wax.


How can you say all swirls are in the clear, or say unwaxed cars have swirls marks?
The wax is on top of the clear coat. It does not bond to the clear coat, and it is greasy in nature. I remember years ago when people said not to use spray wax for your furniture too often because of wax build up. Why could that not be a problem with cars finishes also?

[Markbaja]

Re: A question?

I think your not quite understanding wax as such. It's not like bees wax that permanently sits on your car forever, going hard and being able to be scratched. It's only microns thin, and will wash off with rains etc, leaving a bare clear coat. These are the swirls and scratches. But, you can give this a try for your own piece of mind if you like.

Wash a panel on your car a few times, removing any waxes, and see if you see swirls. If so, and after removing your wax, you still see them, then there in your clear.

A wax alone will not remove swirls, you need correction, with for example the Ultimate Compound using an orbital polisher, then applying a polish, then a wax.

This will remove swirls, trust me, I've done it to my two cars. And about to do it to a mates Monaro tomorrow morning.

[billd55]

Re: A question?

Quote from Mequiar's website:

4. How can I remove fresh stains, water spots, and smears on my car's finish?

The best way to get rid of fresh stains, water spots and smears is to remove them as quickly as possible, before they have a chance to bake into the paint or cause permanent damage.

This question implies that car wax can smear, or is the clear coat finish itself which does not seem likely IMO.

[TH0001]

Re: A question?

The question does not imply that whatsoever. The question implies nothing, it is straight forward, I suggest you look up the definition of the word "imply".

What the answer suggests, however, is that stains, water spots, and (certain) smears can damage the clear coat if not removed quickly. Nothing more, nothing less.