Ultimate Wax

[akimel]

Re: Ultimate Wax

So excited about this wax. Been using GCCW but want to also try out a paint sealant. Should I start with NXT or go straight to Ultimate wax?

If UW is as good as everyone hopes, NXT will be obsolete. It's hard for me to envision any reason to use them together. But I have not tried UW yet. Perhaps applying UW as a base coat, topped with NXT will be a powerful combination ... but I'm dubious. A sealant on top of a different sealant? Why? Clearly UW is intended as NXT's successor.

I'm looking forward to reading the reviews of Ultimate Wax.

[kristina27]

Re: Ultimate Wax

Would you suggest UW topped with a coat of GC wax?

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Ultimate Wax

Would you suggest UW topped with a coat of GC wax?

In so much as people like to top a synth with a carnauba, sure. But, as always, your choice of wax, sealant or a mix of the two is a very personal choice. We all see things a bit differently, we all like different things. There really is no "right" or "wrong" to this final selection so play around a bit and find something that suits you and your vehicle.

[saturn2]

Re: Ultimate Wax

I was wondering if UW is NXT's replacement what will happen to M21?

And I was also wondering if UW could make to the professional series as a paste wax.

[Shawn T.]

Re: Ultimate Wax

I was wondering if UW is NXT's replacement what will happen to M21?

And I was also wondering if UW could make to the professional series as a paste wax.

Two different product lines. M21 can be used with a rotary buffer while consumer line products are not designed for rotary buffer use. Plus, M21 can be purchased in 64 oz. containers.

[switerajaya]

Re: Ultimate Wax

I just stepped out of our head chemist's office (VP of R&D) where we were discussing this very topic - I wanted to make sure I conveyed this information as accurately as possible since we know it's a subject of much debate in detailing forums.

You are correct in assuming that if you had a layer of oil on top of the paint that the wax/sealant would not adhere to it. But in order for that to happen you would need a perfectly flat, non porous surface to begin with. And paint is anything but perfectly flat and non porous. When you apply a pure polish you are, in fact, feeding those oils down into the pores of the paint. We know that in those debates on detailing forums many people insist that paint is "dry" and "impermeable" but that is flat out not correct. Even factory paint that has been oven cured still has some moisture to it in the form of whatever solvents, etc make up that paint. And over time, with exposure to the elements, that paint will continue to desiccate, sometimes to the point of failure.

That's why products like M105 that were designed to be used on fresh paint work best in that situation. Anyone who has experienced very fast drying and dusting of M105, or even gumming up of the product, needs look no further than the condition of the paint they're using it on. For me personally, I think back to that Ferrari 360 Modena I buffed out a couple of years ago where M105 did just that - it turned to a gummy mess almost immediately. Why? Because the paint (a clear coat, by the way, not single stage) was so dried out that it literally sucked the moisture out of M105 and into the paint. That can be a tough concept for those who believe paint to be completely "dry" to wrap their heads around. But switching to an oil rich product, in this case M80, did wonders for correcting that poor Ferrari. Spray a car, wet sand it a day or two later, then compound it with M105 and you won't see a ton of dust like you will when D/A correcting a used car that hasn't been pampered its whole life. And it's all down to the porosity and dryness of the paint.

So, what does that have to do with the question at hand? Simple - a pure polish applied to a paint surface, especially one that has experienced repeated exposure to the elements and is a bit more "weathered", will get down into those pores and effectively smooth out the finish. Applying a wax or sealant on top of that will actually give the wax/sealant a flatter, smoother base to lay over but still give plenty of paint surface for it to bond to. The rest of the final curing of the product locks it down over the polish. So the polish isn't actually creating a layer of oil on top of the paint, but rather filling the pores of the paint. A gel coat works the exact same way, but on a larger scale, so to speak. If you've ever worked on a dried out gel coat and applied a pure polish to it, you can literally watch that stuff get sucked into the finish. That is because gel coats are much thicker and far more porous than automotive paint, but the mechanism of what's happening is identical.

On a brand spanking new car fresh off the assembly line, a pure polish may make very little difference to the finish because the paint surface is still pretty "tight", meaning it hasn't yet aged, dried, opened up. Even applying a coat of wax often doesn't make a huge visual difference to paint that is that new. Now go to the opposite extreme - a badly oxidized single stage paint system, one where a red car now looks pink. A wax alone can make a huge visual improvement, but a pure polish will do much, much more. Obviously a proper paint cleaner is really called for in that case, but just looking at pure polishes it's obvious how much more dramatic the reaction is here compared to a fresh paint job. And in between these two extremes you'll find varying degrees of dryness, porosity, etc and the response to a pure polish will change accordingly. Clear coat systems may not be quite as dramatic, but the same sort of changes are still taking place.

Thanks Mike!!! Thanks for explaining about dried out paint which is quite the same that i experienced on my cars using rotary and M205 (not M105). Back then, i think that lack of my experience with SMAT products that caused M205 to dry quick, gumming and i ended with using much much more pads (got to switch it a bit early to avoid gumming) and products and relatively short working time especially at burnishing stage with W9207 (it turns that shorter working time is recommended by Todd Helme while using SMAT type products for burnishing stage). The result is as expected, but i wondering why people at forum raving about long playtime property of M205 while i'm struggling to buff for more that 2 section passes without drying the polish out on a 2 years old car (heavily used for only 2 months while new, and spend the rest of its time being garaged most of the time till now - i hardly drive it once a month) which led me to place an order for G110V2 (just in case if my car's paint is a sticky one, but only used it recently and i think i love it since i could skip taping up process if i'm only doing polishing and waxing with non staining lsp but not compounding). But the last time i buffed due to LSP change and couple of swirls and light scratches -thanks to careless pedestrian-, i can see the longer play time that many people mentioned about M205. But now i know that paint do dried out (i live in indonesia - quite harsh climate -), even for a car that only heavily used for the 2 months since it's new.

Sorry, a bit out of topic. But again thanks Mr. Stoops for the information.

[saturn2]

Re: Ultimate Wax

Your right about the rotary part but, 21 is related to NXT. While not a pure wax like 16 or 26 which require extra steps for a good finish.
I was wondering if a pro version could be in the works since it doesn't contain cleaners. It's what some people wanted NXT to be when it first rolled out.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Ultimate Wax

I was wondering if UW is NXT's replacement what will happen to M21?

And I was also wondering if UW could make to the professional series as a paste wax.

Ultimate Wax is not replacing NXT any more than NXT replaced Gold Class - they will all be in production going forward.

A paste version of Ultimate Wax was introduced at the same time as the liquid - right at the beginning of this thread.

Your right about the rotary part but, 21 is related to NXT. While not a pure wax like 16 or 26 which require extra steps for a good finish.
I was wondering if a pro version could be in the works since it doesn't contain cleaners. It's what some people wanted NXT to be when it first rolled out.

Not sure why so many people consider NXT to be a cleaner wax - it isn't. It's a polish wax, as is 21, as is Ultimate Wax. You get more cleaning ability from the applicator you use than anything NXT has in it.

[saturn2]

Re: Ultimate Wax

Actually I wouldn't call NXT a cleaner wax actually anything with oil can clean. NXT has a small amount of cleaners doesn't it.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Ultimate Wax

NXT has virtually zero cleaning ability in and of itself. Like we said, you'll get more cleaning action out of your applicator than you will the NXT itself.

[D B K]

Re: Ultimate Wax

Hi here is how much shipping cost to Turkey so kind as to order a product?

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Ultimate Wax

We do not ship outside the US on retail customer orders - you would have to deal with an online retailer that offers international shipping, sorry.

[D B K]

Re: Ultimate Wax

Do you know what will help you understand? I get from it?

[Tuck91]

Re: Ultimate Wax

The NXT cleaner wax myth will never be put to rest.

[BillyJack]

Re: Ultimate Wax

I just stepped out of our head chemist's office (VP of R&D) where we were discussing this very topic - I wanted to make sure I conveyed this information as accurately as possible since we know it's a subject of much debate in detailing forums.

You are correct in assuming that if you had a layer of oil on top of the paint that the wax/sealant would not adhere to it. But in order for that to happen you would need a perfectly flat, non porous surface to begin with. And paint is anything but perfectly flat and non porous. When you apply a pure polish you are, in fact, feeding those oils down into the pores of the paint. We know that in those debates on detailing forums many people insist that paint is "dry" and "impermeable" but that is flat out not correct. Even factory paint that has been oven cured still has some moisture to it in the form of whatever solvents, etc make up that paint. And over time, with exposure to the elements, that paint will continue to desiccate, sometimes to the point of failure.

That's why products like M105 that were designed to be used on fresh paint work best in that situation. Anyone who has experienced very fast drying and dusting of M105, or even gumming up of the product, needs look no further than the condition of the paint they're using it on. For me personally, I think back to that Ferrari 360 Modena I buffed out a couple of years ago where M105 did just that - it turned to a gummy mess almost immediately. Why? Because the paint (a clear coat, by the way, not single stage) was so dried out that it literally sucked the moisture out of M105 and into the paint. That can be a tough concept for those who believe paint to be completely "dry" to wrap their heads around. But switching to an oil rich product, in this case M80, did wonders for correcting that poor Ferrari. Spray a car, wet sand it a day or two later, then compound it with M105 and you won't see a ton of dust like you will when D/A correcting a used car that hasn't been pampered its whole life. And it's all down to the porosity and dryness of the paint.

So, what does that have to do with the question at hand? Simple - a pure polish applied to a paint surface, especially one that has experienced repeated exposure to the elements and is a bit more "weathered", will get down into those pores and effectively smooth out the finish. Applying a wax or sealant on top of that will actually give the wax/sealant a flatter, smoother base to lay over but still give plenty of paint surface for it to bond to. The rest of the final curing of the product locks it down over the polish. So the polish isn't actually creating a layer of oil on top of the paint, but rather filling the pores of the paint. A gel coat works the exact same way, but on a larger scale, so to speak. If you've ever worked on a dried out gel coat and applied a pure polish to it, you can literally watch that stuff get sucked into the finish. That is because gel coats are much thicker and far more porous than automotive paint, but the mechanism of what's happening is identical.

On a brand spanking new car fresh off the assembly line, a pure polish may make very little difference to the finish because the paint surface is still pretty "tight", meaning it hasn't yet aged, dried, opened up. Even applying a coat of wax often doesn't make a huge visual difference to paint that is that new. Now go to the opposite extreme - a badly oxidized single stage paint system, one where a red car now looks pink. A wax alone can make a huge visual improvement, but a pure polish will do much, much more. Obviously a proper paint cleaner is really called for in that case, but just looking at pure polishes it's obvious how much more dramatic the reaction is here compared to a fresh paint job. And in between these two extremes you'll find varying degrees of dryness, porosity, etc and the response to a pure polish will change accordingly. Clear coat systems may not be quite as dramatic, but the same sort of changes are still taking place.

I consider this to be one of the most profound posts I've read in the time I've been a member here. Thanks for sharing it, Michael.
I've been a fan of M07 for about 35 years. I never knew why it worked so well, but I knew it worked. Earlier this year, when I was attempting to rejuvenate the aged paint on my El Camino, I followed a Mike Phillips' tutorial, force-feeding multiple applications of M07 into the paint prior to any machine polishing. Considering the poor condition of the paint prior to my work, the results were remarkable.
Since then, I've used old-school products such as M07, M03, M09 and M80 on a few older BC/CC paints rather than going directly to the accepted M105/M205 combo. Just goes to show that: 1) There's always room for more knowledge, and 2)The free exchange of information in forums such as this is absolutely invaluable to amateurs and pros alike who all share a common goal of developing the absolute best finish attainable.

Bill