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**Buellwinkle** · Jan 24, 2005, 08:36 PM

I find that even #80 is too weak unless you have soft paint. I start with #83 and it works well on all my cars, no problems. It's really not that aggresive and doesn't break down as quickly as #80 so it polishes longer.

Not much you can do about scratches you can feel, that probably means it's through the clear coat and not worth messing with, specially without a rotary buffer to remove wet sanding marks. If you have some deeper scratches or chips that you can see metal or primer, consider using the lipstick that Turtle Wax sells (wish Meguiars carried them). You rub it on the scratch or chip and then wipe the excess off. From 5' away it looks good. Another choice are these new touch up paints that come with a ball point tip like a pen so you can color in the scratches.

#7 works great with the G100, I use it to applied a very thin coat and then remove it by hand (some people prefer using the G100 but my hands are vibrated out by the time I get to #7). Never had any trouble removing it.

Sometime you have accept what you've done as good enough. Too much buffing and you'll go through the paint and I've done that after 6 years of buffing my black Suburban, had to get the hood repainted....

**Mike Phillips** · Jan 24, 2005, 09:46 PM

Re: Newbie- Doing things incorrectly? and comments

Originally posted by romulus
Hello everyone, I have been a visitor in this forum for awhile. But because I have several questions and comments, I decided to join Meguiar's online forum.

Hi romulus,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online

We appreciate your registering with our forum and posting your questions.

First of all, I recently purchased a G100 polisher among with other products. I decided to give a full detail to my wifeâ€™s 5 year old dark green Honda. The carâ€™s paint has some deep scratches that you can feel them with your nails, some light ones and a fair amount of swirls marks. Also, two etched spots from bird poop and a bit of paint oxidation in some spots. Oh, the car never sees a garage.

Sounds like a great candidate for an Extreme Makeover!

Like Buellwinkle stated below, any scratches that you can feel with your fingernail may be too deep to safely repair. You can often, improve a scratch, but not always remove a scratch.

Same thing goes for the bird dropping etchings. Here's something I posted to another question today that applies here,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

During our Saturday detailing clinics, one of the things we stress is to do a thorough job of removing the defects by focusing on the task at hand. When applying ScratchX by hand this means working small areas at a time and overlapping into these areas when moving on to the next section. Same goes for applying products like the the #80 Speed Glaze. It's important to use a slow arm speed, 4-5 lbs of pressure on the head of the polisher and overlapping motions on the 4.5 to 5.0 setting. If you do this, you will have greatly increased your chances for successfully removing a majority of the defects from your car's finish.

An interesting thing we always try to point out is the defects that do remain after detailing your car. If you have done everything correctly and after wiping off your LSP you discover random, isolated, deeper scratches, (RIDS), this is what you're seeing... deeper scratches.

You see, the shallow scratches will buff out leaving behind the deeper ones. With the thousands of lighter, shallower scratches removed, the remaining deeper scratches will now stand out like a sore thumb making it easier for you eyes to detect them. This is normal. The thing to remember is that in order to remove all the defects means to remove more paint and depending on your goals and how much paint you have to work with, (film-build), you may be better off learning to live with the deeper scratches versus trying to remove them.

Here's a saying to remember,

"You can often improve a scratch, but you cannot always remove a scratch"

Here's a different way of saying the same thing,

"Often times you are better off merely trying to improve a defect than to completely remove the defect"

The point being is this, you only have a certain amount of film-build, or paint thickness to work within, if you remove too much paint you will expose the color coat under a clear coat, and in the case of a non-clear coat finish, you will expose the primer under the color coat.

It's also important to remember that when you're working on a clear coat finish, all of the U.V. protection for the paint job itself is in the clear coat, so the more clear you remove, the less U.V. protection you have left.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is my detailing arsenal:
Deep crystal car wash
Quick clay system
Scratch X
Plastic X
Endurance Tire dressing
Medallion Premium Paint cleaner
#9 swirl remover
#7 show car glaze
NXT wax
2-8006 pads
2-9006 pads
G-100 DAP

Great collection, great start.

Here is what I did and some comments

1- Wash the car with Deep crystal car wash. Most of the dirt got washed after two weeks straight of constant rain

2- Clay with Quick clay system. The car was clayed previously by using the other M brand clay system about less than two months. I was surprised how much stuff you pick up with the Meg clay compared with the other brand. I used half of the clay but I ended up dropping it on the ground. So, I started to use the other half and guess what? I dropped the clay again just before finishing. So, I finished claying the car using the other brand. Fortunately the now I can get the QCS in a local Kmart instead of the local auto parts store.

3- I started to tackle the paint edged by using scratch X by hand. Either the paint is too hard or the etching is so deep that I could not be removed. To describe it looks like after clay gets dried by the sun it shows a lot of cracks. I tried using a cotton terry cloth, a cotton swab, foam applicator... No result. I worked the area for at least 15 minutes, reapplying the product. No luck, but at least is less noticeable. So I left it like that fearing that I was removing too much paint.

4- I stated to use my DA set a 4.5 with 8006 pad and MPPC to remove the light scratches. I decided not to do anything with the deep scratch. Still too afraid to remove a lot of paint. Now here is the part that I am not sure what I am doing right. I started a section of about 2â€™x2â€™ going back and forward from side to side then up and down with about 3 lbs of pressure. My arm speed is set by counting one thousand one, on thousand two, and one thousand thee. I am guessing that is the medium arm speed that everyone refers. After spending about 5 minutes there still some scratches and swirls but not as much. Am I spending too little time per section? Do I need to use #80 instead of the MPPC?

Not an aggressive enough product for what you want to do, not enough downward pressure, and you could probably use the little extra cleaning power afforded by the 5.0 setting. You could try using the MPPC with a little more pressure, a little faster setting and work a smaller section, cut it down to about 16" square. You might consider stepping over the the Professional Line, especially if you think you're going to be doing more polishing in the future and go ahead and obtain some #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish and some #80 Speed Glaze.

5- Then I switched to #9 with a clean 8006 pad and did the same procedure. Some of the swirls are gone but still more to take. Again too little time per section?

You probably didn't remove the swirls in the first step and the #9 Swirl Remover 2.0 is to gentle to remove swirls the first combination didn't remove.

6- Then I use #7 with a 9006 padâ€¦it was hard to remove but I found what I did wrongâ€¦ I applied too thick with my PCâ€¦novice mistakeâ€¦ after reading the proper way to apply and remove the #7, I am thinking doing the following: apply #7 with a foam applicator by hand the entire car then slightly remove it little bit twice with a cotton towel. Any other suggestion? Perhaps I should try deep crystal polish #2 step.

Either way, focus on the cleaning steps first, nail your process for removing defects down. After you have done this, you can either apply the #7 by hand, or apply the Deep Crystal Polish by machine, either or will work fine.

7- With another 9006 pad I proceed to apply the NXT wax with my PC and then remove it by hand.

This is common and works well.

[b]Here are my observations after all the process;

Paint reflection was really good to the point that I could see the blue sky in the green paint. Swirls marks and scratches are still noticeable at certain sun light angle.[b]

Nailing down your cleaning process will fix this.

One more question, I carefully labeled each pad for cleaning, polishing, etc. Let say if I am using a pad for the MPPC can I reuse the same pad for something more aggressive like #80 as long as I washed it?

Meguiar's doesn't recommend cross-contaminating your pads by using them with different products. That said, as you are just getting into this, we understand that it's easier to clean your pad really well and use it with a different product. While this is not the ultimate solution, you can get away with it. The best thing to do would be to look into obtaining the #83 and the #80 as it sounds like you really want to do the best work possible and these two products will help you do accomplish your goals.

Thank you for reading my long post and I appreciate your comments.
romulus

Again, thank you for registering with our forum and posting your questions. Heres a little something I wrote that covers the basic steps...

Here's the basic order of steps to follow,

Washing
Before detailing your car, first do an extremely good job of washing it. Remove all the dirt from all the nooks and crannies. This prevents any small abrasive dirt particle from entering into the machine polishing process and potentially instilling a swirl. Get the Car Sparkling Clean to start with and everything will be downhill after that.

Claying
After that clay the car, at least the horizontal surfaces. Again, do a good job of claying to insure you remove all above surface contaminants. The level of gloss you can achieve from your car's finish is mostly determined by how smooth you can make your paint. Claying will make your car's finish as smooth as glass.

Cleaning
Cleaning is different than washing. Cleaning is removing both above surface defects like oxidation and below surface defects like swirls, scratches, etchings, and dirt that has embedded itself under the surface. Choose the appropriate paint cleaner for the condition of your car's finish and your application process. If you're unsure of which paint cleaner or cleaner/polish is right for your car, describe your car and if possible post a picture and we'll be glad to make some recommendations.

Polishing
Polishing after removing the defects is typically using a pure polish that is non-abrasive to restore brilliant high gloss and deep, dark reflections. This is an optional step and one best used on medium to dark colored car.

Protecting
This is where you apply your choice of wax or paint protectant. Adding a layer or two of wax creates a sacrificial-barrier on your car's paint to protect it and also add shine and gloss. Generally, two thin coats will insure even coverage with a uniform appearance.

Maintaining
Maintaining is the use of products like a quick detailer or a spray wax to maintain that "Just detailed look" in-between regular washings, and the regular application of a normal coat of wax.

Meguiar's always teaches,

"Always use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

The idea is to see if you can restore an acceptable finish using the least aggressive product. Starting with a mild paint cleaner or cleaner/polish and testing to see what can accomplished with it is the safe way to learn which product you will need to safely remove the defects. If the first products you try don't do the job, you can always substitute a more aggressive product.

The most aggressive you can go with Meguiar's products and a dual action polisher is using our #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish and our W-8006 foam pad on the 5.0 setting. Getting any more aggressive than this can cause hazing of the finish and if the defects are serious enough to require a more aggressive product then you should use a rotary buffer or take it to a professional who is experienced with the rotary buffer.

When it comes to removing swirls and other defects using the dual action polisher, here are two products that work really well,

#80 Speed Glaze
#83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish

In keeping with Meguiar's philosophy of using the least aggressive product to get the job done, if you are unfamiliar with these products and/or your car's paint, then always perform "Test Spot" to a small are first before attempting to do the entire car.

"If you cannot make one small area look good with your prescribed products and process, then you will not be able to make the entire car look good"

Makes sense huh?

To do a test spot, start out with the #80 Speed Glaze with a W-8006 foam polishing pad and buff for 3-4 minutes.

When cleaning paint with the dual action polisher, you want to map out in your minds eye a section or area about 16" square or rectangle, or whatever fit's your car's body panels shape. The idea is you don't want to try to do to much of an area at one time or you will not get good results. The dual action polisher is gentle in it's cleaning and polishing action and for this reason, trying to work on too large an area at one time will not remove enough paint to remove any defects.

Note: To remove a below surface defect, you must remove some paint until the highest points of the surface are level with the lowest depths of the defect you're trying to remove. This means removing paint. This also means how deep of a defect you can remove is determined by how thick you paint is. Often times you can improve a defect, but not completely remove the defect as to do so would remove to much paint and in the case of a clear coat, expose the color coat and in the case of a non-clear coat finish, you will expose the primer under the color coat. How much paint you can remove is hard to know because you can never know exactly how much working film-build you have to work with. Experience in this area helps a lot and sometimes luck is a factor to. Remember this, light swirls are generally pretty safe to remove, but deep scratches like key scratches etc. you will probably be better off merely improving the way they look so they don't stand out like a sore thumb, the to attempt to completely remove them.

When using the dual action polisher to remove defects, map out a section to work in your minds eye. Check the speed setting on the variable speed adjuster. For removing defects you usually need to be around the 4.5 to 5.0 setting. Meguiar's never recommends running the polisher faster than the 5.0 setting as these higher speed settings produce an oscillating action that is too violent in it's speed and motion and this combined with time creates heat and the synergy of all these factors will loosen the Velcro material attached to the foam. Keep your speed settings at 5.0 or below.

After applying some product to your foam pad, (already attached to the polisher), place the face of the foam pad onto the finish and then turn the polisher on. DO NOT turn the polisher on before it has come into contact with the foam pad or your will sling product all over the place and then you'll get to clean the splatter up instead or work on your car's finish. Once you have turned the polisher on, move the polisher around to spread out your product over the area you are going to work. This is important. What you're trying to do here is to spread-out your product so that you have a film of fresh product spread out over the surface you're going to work. THEN begin to work the product against the finish using a slow arm speed, moving the polisher back and forth over the section and overlapping your passes by 50%. You should run the polisher in a couple of different directions, always with overlapping motions, to insure even cleaning over the entire surface.

Note: The reason you want to spread your freshly applied product out over the section you're going to work is because if you turn the polisher on and immediately begin to work in one place, as you're working the product against the finish the diminishing abrasives are breaking down. As you continue to move around the area you're working, by the time you get to the last portion of the area you're working, you will be using a much less aggressive product than when you started out because all the while the diminishing abrasives have been breaking down. If when you first start out you take a few moments to spread the freshly applied product around over the entire section you're going to work, and then go back to your start point, you will have fresh product ready to be worked into the finish as you move from one area to the other.

Does that makes sense?

After you have buffed the area for 3-4 minutes, (how long you buff can be relative to the temperature and humidity in your area, also the type of paint your working on and the amount of product you applied. The important thing is that you buffed long enough to work the product against the finish and have broken the diminishing abrasives down, but you have not buffed to long and buffed to a dry buff. This is something that is hard to explain with a keyboard and a computer monitor and is really something that first-hand experience will teach you), stop buffing, wipe off the residue and inspect the results in two kinds of light, (if possible). If your results look good and are acceptable to you, then repeat this process, (#80 Speed Glaze with the W-8006 foam pad on the 4.5 to 5.0 setting), and after removing all of the residue you can then go on to the waxing step.

If your results don't look good, and this combination of products is not removing as many of the swirls and scratches as you would like, then try repeating the above to the same test section using the #83 Dual Action Cleaner Polish. Use a new clean W-8006 foam polishing pad for this step, or a W-8006 foam polishing pad that you have previously used with the #83.

Here's a suggestion
Use a permanent marker to mark the back of your buffing pads with the product number you're using with them so you don't mix different products onto different pads.

After buffing the test section on the 5.0 setting remove the excess product and re-polish the same area with the #80 Speed Glaze and the W-8006 pad marked and used with this product. Repeat the same procedure as originally outlined for doing the test spot with the #80 above. After you are finished buffing this area, remove the residue and inspect your results again in two kinds of light if possible.

The goal of coarse is that now your car's finish will look great! and be ready for you choice of wax. If your car's finish does look great and meets your expectations then repeat this 2-step cleaning approach to the entire car. If not then chances are very good to remove the defects and meet you requirements the finish will need to be professionally cleaned and polished using a rotary buffer by an experienced professional.

Hope this helps...

Mike

**romulus** · Jan 25, 2005, 01:25 PM

Thank you guys for your tips. I will consider in getting #80 and #83. As far as the deep scratches, more likely I will leve them alone, at the most I will try use some touch up paint. Yeah, I can live with those but it bugs me the swirls marks. Anyway, thanks again.

**Mike Phillips** · Jan 25, 2005, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by romulus
Thank you guys for your tips. I will consider in getting #80 and #83. As far as the deep scratches, more likely I will leve them alone, at the most I will try use some touch up paint. Yeah, I can live with those but it bugs me the swirls marks. Anyway, thanks again.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

Mike

**romulus** · Jan 25, 2005, 02:51 PM

Thanks Mike,
I am seriously considering redoing the whole process again. I hope that it would be as soon as I get in my hands some #80 and #83 along with two extra 8006 pads.
Here is my new plan of attack:
1-Clay the area around the deep scratches and use some touch up paint to at least fill in as much the scratch. Most likely I will do that a few days in advance to let the paint cure. I would think that any excess paint out of the scratch will be removed during claying, cleaning and polish process
2-Wash the car
3-Clay the whole car while the car still wet to save a bit of time
4-Once the car is fully dried, do a full cleaning, polish and waxing in a test spot with PC
I will start with 80 and 8006 pad then some #7 (by hand) and NTX per your recommendations.
If that dosenâ€™t work, switch to #83 then some #7 (by hand) and NTX in the same spot?
Once satisfied then finish the entire car with the best result method.
I will let you know the results. Hopefully with some pictures.

**Mike Phillips** · Jan 25, 2005, 03:15 PM

Hi romulus,

A couple of suggestions,

If you've already clayed the car really well, and you're going to try detailing it again, chances are good it shouldn't need to be clayed again unless it's always parked outside. To make your decision, simply run your clean hand over the paint after washing and inspect for above surface contaminants. If you find them, then clay, if not then go right to the polishing step.

Next, starting out with the #80 Speed Glaze first is a good idea, however... before applying the #7 Show Car Glaze, inspect your results and determine at this stage whether or not you need to use a more aggressive product.

* Wash
* Evaluate - See if you need to clay
* Perform a Test Spot - See if #80 removes the defects if it does, continue, if it doesn't substitute the #83. If your test area shows the #80 to have removed the defects to your approval then continue with it and then move to the next steps.

Mike

**romulus** · Jan 25, 2005, 04:11 PM

Well, more likely I will have to clay the car again since is outside 24/7. Thank you again.

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