Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

I'm still kinda thinking that it'll take more than one wash, but maybe after a few washes which probably wouldn't take too long back East with all that salt, plus the salt, it could deteriorate the wax quicker than normal to where it would disappear before there was time to apply more.

Very good points. Tyler. I was thinking more along the lines of a summer wash. I agree with you. Factoring all things. It would disappear quickly.

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

The point is, I do not believe after diluting the product he was stripping any ones wax from there paint. Now 35 years later that is a genuine concern. How times have changed. lol

J. A., I am assuming the wash was a friction wash of some sort? If that were the case, the soap probably wasn't formulated in a way that was possibly deleterious to the wax.

I'm still kinda thinking that it'll take more than one wash, but maybe after a few washes which probably wouldn't take too long back East with all that salt, plus the salt, it could deteriorate the wax quicker than normal to where it would disappear before there was time to apply more.

This is what I suspect too. And, that it is going to be dependent on what wax/sealer you have on your car and how many layers you have.

Friction washes got a bad reputation for being harmful to the car's paint, which is why you almost never see them in the self-serve automatic car washes anymore. I think if one run through a touchless car wash would strip somebody's $50 hand wax job, you could find that information everywhere on the web, and the soap vendor chemists would have been doing something to fix the problem.

I tried Googling something like "touchless wash and strip wax," and other than car care forums, I found the one touchless car wash chain in New York, the one I referred to above, and the only reason I got that match is because in their FAQ they mentioned not to wash your car with dishwashing soap as it would strip the wax.

So I am sure the touchless wash will be harder on your wax than hand washing or automatic friction wash. How hard, you would have to do some tests to find out. Maybe it would be something that you could compensate for by drying your car immediately after leaving the bay and using Ultimate Quick Detailer on it. It may be worse than that. Even doing that, you may have to wax your car more often if you use these washes regularly.

One thing that might be worth the $5 for a touchless express wash is to drive the car through just to get the underbody blast, then drive out and do your own wash and wax, because most people aren't equipped to clean their own undercarriage.

[roushstage2]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Very good points. Tyler. I was thinking more along the lines of a summer wash. I agree with you. Factoring all things. It would disappear quickly.

In the summer without the extremes, I imagine it would probably take even longer.

[J. A. Michaels]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

J. A., I am assuming the wash was a friction wash of some sort? If that were the case, the soap probably wasn't formulated in a way that was possibly deleterious to the wax.



This is what I suspect too. And, that it is going to be dependent on what wax/sealer you have on your car and how many layers you have.

Friction washes got a bad reputation for being harmful to the car's paint, which is why you almost never see them in the self-serve automatic car washes anymore. I think if one run through a touchless car wash would strip somebody's $50 hand wax job, you could find that information everywhere on the web, and the soap vendor chemists would have been doing something to fix the problem.

I tried Googling something like "touchless wash and strip wax," and other than car care forums, I found the one touchless car wash chain in New York, the one I referred to above, and the only reason I got that match is because in their FAQ they mentioned not to wash your car with dishwashing soap as it would strip the wax.

So I am sure the touchless wash will be harder on your wax than hand washing or automatic friction wash. How hard, you would have to do some tests to find out. Maybe it would be something that you could compensate for by drying your car immediately after leaving the bay and using Ultimate Quick Detailer on it. It may be worse than that. Even doing that, you may have to wax your car more often if you use these washes regularly.

One thing that might be worth the $5 for a touchless express wash is to drive the car through just to get the underbody blast, then drive out and do your own wash and wax, because most people aren't equipped to clean their own undercarriage.

Even if the soap was more user friendly, not as harsh. Being a friction wash, would that not be as bad on the finish? What I am trying to say is every time you touch the surface aren't you abrading the surface? Who knows what gunk and junk is attached to the brushes? More friction= more abrading.

I always thought the friction washes went the way of the dodo bird because of labor costs. No one needed to vacuum the vehicle. No one to hook up the vehicle. No one to unhook the vehicle. No one to dry off the vehicle, and to move it to a staging area for the customer to pick it up and leave. With the drive thru washes there are no labor costs associated solely on the wash. The clerk does other things and just rings up the price of the wash.

Not trying to be obstinate about this. i just think that the majority of automatic car washes are not the paint care enthusiasts cup of tea. For the average person they are great. But for people who take paint care to a different level, they have the potential to more harm then good.

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Even if the soap was more user friendly, not as harsh. Being a friction wash, would that not be as bad on the finish? What I am trying to say is every time you touch the surface aren't you abrading the surface? Who knows what gunk and junk is attached to the brushes? More friction= more abrading.

I always thought the friction washes went the way of the dodo bird because of labor costs. No one needed to vacuum the vehicle. No one to hook up the vehicle. No one to unhook the vehicle. No one to dry off the vehicle, and to move it to a staging area for the customer to pick it up and leave. With the drive thru washes there are no labor costs associated solely on the wash. The clerk does other things and just rings up the price of the wash.

Not trying to be obstinate about this. i just think that the majority of automatic car washes are not the paint care enthusiasts cup of tea. For the average person they are great. But for people who take paint care to a different level, they have the potential to more harm then good.

J. A.,

Friction washes are still around. I refer you to my last post at the bottom of page 2 on this thread http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41879

I think no matter what kind of automatic wash you use, attended or not, friction or touchless, it is going to be worse on either the paint or the wax than washing it by hand, and neither one will get your car as clean or as nice looking as hand washing.

I just want to fully understand what the consequences are and make an informed decision at any point in time. It still takes me close to an hour to hand wash either my car or my husband's, if you count from beginning to having everything put away.

So I just want to know what the options are and the consequences of using those options.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Wow. A lot of things (potentially) to touch on here.

Will a touchless car wash strip wax - that's basically the crux of this discussion. Well, if the wash is a two part acid wash/alkaline rincse then it will, at least to some degree. How quickly it will do so is another question. If you're going to remove dirt with any level of effectiveness you need either some pretty strong detergents (which will strip wax) or some pretty high tech soaps (that may or may not - and such soaps may or may not even exist).

Meguiar's does not supply soap to these types of car washes, although we do supply a wide variety of soap (check our Detailer Line for the full run down) to a heck of a lot of car washes around the country. Our soaps are all pH balanced to ensure they do not strip wax. And that's the key - the pH of the soap or, in the case of a touchless car wash, the final rinse.

By far the most common method of cleaning in these touchless washes is to presoak/pretreat/preclean (or whatever word you like here) with an acid wash that will remove the dirt. And that acid level is generally in the pH range of 3.5 to 4.5. But that acid was needs to be neutralized, not merely "rinsed" off, and the only way to do this is with an alkaline rinse that is generally in the pH range of 11 to 13. It's this high pH that strips your wax, not the acid wash.

Now, we certainly can't speak for any other company's soaps or claims, and if someone has developed a soap or prewash/neutralizing rinse that is able to step outside of this scenario, it isn't something that we are involved in at all. But there's usually an easy way to check - ask for a copy of the MSDS and check the pH levels of the product. If the pH is high, as noted above, then it is at the very least highly suspect when it comes to concerns about stripping wax.

Having said all that, there's something else that needs to be stated (again - we've said this a bunch of times recently): if you live in an area where the roads are salted in the winter and your car is covered in the stuff, then whether or not a touchless car wash will strip your wax is the least of your concerns. You want that salt off, even if it means taking the wax off with it. Truth is, if your car has been covered in salt there probably isn't much, if any, wax left anyway. GET THE SALT OFF Using a wash like this from time to time is likely not to be a problem. Marki, from your own experience your paint hasn't fallen off, your trim hasn't turned to dust. As with anything, however, there are good, not so good, and downright terrible examples. Finding a good one is the tricky part.

One last thing - beading is not a sign of wax protection. It can be, but it isn't always. You can take a freshly painted panel, wet sand it, buff it out with M105, finish with M205 and leave it like that and it will bead water like crazy if you just spray the panel down. Not a hint of wax protection on it.

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Michael, the wash company that I contacted in New York apparently first puts down an alkaline presoak to attack oils, then follows it with an acid presoak to attack dirt other than oils. They follow that with power wash then trifoam and rinse.

I found this one reference to high alkaline soap and wax: Green Bean Boat Soap Wash & Shine is a micro-sheet of wax to begin with so using a high alkalinity soap will remove it in just a few washes.

Michael, may I ask, since beading is not a determinant of wax protection, what can you do to test for it? I would like to do a trial but I need to know how to tell if my wax has been stripped or partially stripped.

[CieraSL]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Michael, may I ask, since beading is not a determinant of wax protection, what can you do to test for it? I would like to do a trial but I need to know how to tell if my wax has been stripped or partially stripped.

The Squeak Test - How to test for the presence of wax


Also, if you are using a spray detailer and you notice it is getting harder to wipe off, it is probably time to re-wax.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Michael, the wash company that I contacted in New York apparently first puts down an alkaline presoak to attack oils, then follows it with an acid presoak to attack dirt other than oils. They follow that with power wash then trifoam and rinse.

It's the alkaline presoak that might well do in your wax, depending on the pH. The alkaline presoak is also neutralizing the acid wash, whether they specifically state so or not.

I found this one reference to high alkaline soap and wax: Green Bean Boat Soap Wash & Shine is a micro-sheet of wax to begin with so using a high alkalinity soap will remove it in just a few washes.

From their website they also state "Green Bean Boat Soap is a non-alkaline, non-wax stripping boat soap specifically designed for the marine industry." This sounds completely valid and the same thing can be said for our Marine Wash & Wax, Ultimate Wash & Wax and, with the exception of references to the marine industry, it can also be said for all of our soaps.

Michael, may I ask, since beading is not a determinant of wax protection, what can you do to test for it? I would like to do a trial but I need to know how to tell if my wax has been stripped or partially stripped.

Shane's post above nails it.

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

It's the alkaline presoak that might well do in your wax, depending on the pH. The alkaline presoak is also neutralizing the acid wash, whether they specifically state so or not.

Since the acid wash comes second, it will neutralize the alkaline wash, or better put they will neutralize eachother, but it is a moot point. By the time the power spray hits you will have something presumably neutral.

From their website they also state "Green Bean Boat Soap is a non-alkaline, non-wax stripping boat soap specifically designed for the marine industry." This sounds completely valid and the same thing can be said for our Marine Wash & Wax, Ultimate Wash & Wax and, with the exception of references to the marine industry, it can also be said for all of our soaps.

It definitely implies the alkaline wash will strip the wax and a neutral one won't. The main thing that caught my attention was that they said it would take the alkaline wash several washes to do it.

Shane's post above nails it.

I guess I don't know all the names, so:

1. baggie on hand rub paint feels rough, no wax/sealant protection;
2. baggie on hand rub paint feels smooth, wax or sealant protection is still there.

Is that the one you meant?

Here's a prediction I have, that if the paint is dirty, especially grimy with road film, the wax may bind to the contaminants, and when you wash with an alkaline soap it releases the wax-dirt and washes it away along with some of the top layer of wax.

[CieraSL]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

I guess I don't know all the names, so:

1. baggie on hand rub paint feels rough, no wax/sealant protection;
2. baggie on hand rub paint feels smooth, wax or sealant protection is still there.

Is that the one you meant?

You use the baggie test to see if your paint needs to be clayed. You use the squeak test (The Squeak Test - How to test for the presence of wax) to see if it needs to be waxed. Obviously, if you're going to clay, you should wax afterward.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

Since the acid wash comes second, it will neutralize the alkaline wash, or better put they will neutralize eachother, but it is a moot point. By the time the power spray hits you will have something presumably neutral.

My bad.... they are commonly used the other way around. Nonetheless, however you slice it you're putting some pretty harsh stuff on your paint and wax is not going to last a long time when exposed to it.

I guess I don't know all the names, so:

1. baggie on hand rub paint feels rough, no wax/sealant protection;
2. baggie on hand rub paint feels smooth, wax or sealant protection is still there.

Is that the one you meant?

No, I meant this:

The Squeak Test - How to test for the presence of wax


Also, if you are using a spray detailer and you notice it is getting harder to wipe off, it is probably time to re-wax.

Here's a prediction I have, that if the paint is dirty, especially grimy with road film, the wax may bind to the contaminants, and when you wash with an alkaline soap it releases the wax-dirt and washes it away along with some of the top layer of wax.

Actually, an alkaline wash will break down the wax and remove it, at least to some degree, whether there is any dirt on the surface or not. Body shops use a "wax & grease remover" to strip the existing paint free of these things as part of their prep. Detergents are designed to quickly cut grease on dishes, and anything that effectively cuts grease will also break down and remove wax as the two are actually fairly closely related. For years the folks at Zaino have advocated washing your car with Dawn (an effective grease cutting dish detergent) to remove all wax prior to using their product. Plenty of people have taken this to heart and use a dish detergent once a year or so to strip the paint bare.

Unless everyone has been totally wrong about Dawn all these years. Which they aren't - Dawn even states on their own website "Dawn is so effective in cutting grease on dishes that over the years, consumers have used Dawn on other greasy messes around their homes, from cleaning kitchen messes like grease build up on the stove range hood to oily spots in the garage. Dawn is not recommended for window cleaning, car washing, body wash or washing hair." (the bold is theirs, by the way).

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

My bad.... they are commonly used the other way around. Nonetheless, however you slice it you're putting some pretty harsh stuff on your paint and wax is not going to last a long time when exposed to it.


No, I meant this:



Actually, an alkaline wash will break down the wax and remove it, at least to some degree, whether there is any dirt on the surface or not. Body shops use a "wax & grease remover" to strip the existing paint free of these things as part of their prep. Detergents are designed to quickly cut grease on dishes, and anything that effectively cuts grease will also break down and remove wax as the two are actually fairly closely related. For years the folks at Zaino have advocated washing your car with Dawn (an effective grease cutting dish detergent) to remove all wax prior to using their product. Plenty of people have taken this to heart and use a dish detergent once a year or so to strip the paint bare.

Unless everyone has been totally wrong about Dawn all these years. Which they aren't - Dawn even states on their own website "Dawn is so effective in cutting grease on dishes that over the years, consumers have used Dawn on other greasy messes around their homes, from cleaning kitchen messes like grease build up on the stove range hood to oily spots in the garage. Dawn is not recommended for window cleaning, car washing, body wash or washing hair." (the bold is theirs, by the way).

Okay, thanks, Michael. I am still a little confused, but I think the best way to handle it is just to forget understanding the theory and test it out.

Ironically, my subversive motive for wanting to be able to use a touchless is to wash my husband's car, which is a daily driver that isn't garaged at all. It takes me about an hour to hand wash it. I would rather not have to do that all the time. But, it sounds like the attended friction wash may be a solution anyway.

Thanks for your help. I will let you know the results of any tests I do.

[Mary S]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

You use the baggie test to see if your paint needs to be clayed. You use the squeak test (The Squeak Test - How to test for the presence of wax) to see if it needs to be waxed. Obviously, if you're going to clay, you should wax afterward.

Sorry, Shane, thanks for your post! That is exactly the information I need for doing this test.

By the way, I grew up in Tennessee. My dad lives not far away from you in Heiskell.

[DogParkGuy]

Re: Touchless car washes and stripping of wax

What's the point anyway? Waxes eventually disappear from the finish of cars due to the sun, wind, rain and pollution. My last wash of late Fall includes waxing and I hope it lasts until the first wash of the Spring.