M105 versus M86 solo creme

[Maz]

Gday guys im after some opinions and information regarding these two products.

What i have found so far is:

1) Both products contain the same non dimishing abrasive.
2) M105 has more cut than M86 Solo on any given pad.
3) M86 Solo has longer working time than M105.
4) M86 finishes down flawless with a finishing pad on all paint where as M105 may be too strong (though i have only seen people use a polishing pad with M105)

On the meguiars cutting scale I assume that M86 solo creme is an 8 or 9?

As M86 is pad dependant it seems it can cut anywhere from level 9 cut using a solo heavy cut pad to say a level 2 cut when using the solo finishing pad.

With M105 is it reccomended to use it in a similar fashion as a 1 liquid system? M105 is listed as a compound yet i have seen people using it with a polishing pad and getting near LSP ready.

Would it be possible to use M105 with a light cutting solo pad and then using M105 on a finishing pad to get a flawless finish?

Thanks in advance.

[Kevin Brown]

Re: M105 versus M86 solo creme

Wow. Sounds like you're really tuned-in on both of these products. Great job!

My opinions...

1) Both products contain the same non dimishing abrasive.
Both utilize non-diminishing abrasives. I would not be able to confirm or dispute that the particulate is the exact same in both products. I suspect that they are different.

2) M105 has more cut than M86 Solo on any given pad.
This is almost always TRUE. However, on two occasions I've achieved a flatter and faster cut with M86. I believe that the culprit was VERY fresh paint, not yet fully cured (To the point of being able to push on the paint and leave a fingerprint, that would then disappear after a minute or so).

Additionally, M86 yields superior results if you find yourself polishing very DRY paint. More specifically, the paint is chronologically old, or it has prematurely aged due to chemical or environmental damage, or, perhaps the paint was doomed from the moment it was sprayed (Due to painter-miscalculation during the mixing process).

3) M86 Solo has longer working time than M105.
I tend to agree with you. M105 will dust away after some time, whereas M86 stays 'wet' longer. However, the abrasive particulate and a little bit of moisture will remain in the pad (but not easily transfer to the paint) with the M105. Not that I recommend it, but a spritz of water on the surface of the paint prior to re-polishing without adding more M105 will prove that the remnants of M105 trapped in the pad will still cut impressively.

4) M86 finishes down flawless with a finishing pad on all paint, whereas M105 may be too strong (though i have only seen people use a polishing pad with M105).
On some paints you'll see a bit of micro-hazing with M105, but this is generally a side-effect of using 'traditional' procedures pertaining to compound/pad combinations.

What I mean is, once you've eliminated defects, you should clean the pad (or change the pad to a fresh one), and use a MINIMUM amount of M105. Do NOT prime the pad with water or wipe-down spray (such as M34 Final Inspection)- Instead, apply M105 to the pad and massage it in so that you've got complete coverage of the pad with the M105. Then, use the slowest speed setting (600-1000 r.p.m.), and FIRM pressure, not light pressure. The abrasive in M105 is very small and exact in particulate size, so a bit more downward pressure than you'd normally use with a non-diminishing abrasive will suffice.

Think in terms of how you'd want to wetsand a panel using, say, Unigrit 3000 grade. Firm pressure ensures an adequate cut. Even if you pushed a little too hard, it's doubtful you'd encounter much scouring or inconsistent cutting, because the particulate size is small and consistent. You'd just cut aggressively, consistently, and quickly. If you did NOT use a deliberate and firm pressure, but rather, you used a very light touch, the effect may be inconsistent cutting of the paint, and when you're using a paper with such a small grit-size, you'd be disappointed in the results.


On the Meguiars cutting scale I assume that M86 solo creme is an 8 or 9?
Good question! I'd say it's a 10, only because I've been able to easily & rapidly remove 1000 grit scratches with M86, but we'll have to have Jason or either Mike chime in here to get the official answer. It's difficult to rate because even though the cut is aggressive, it is not brutal.

As M86 is pad dependent, it seems it can cut anywhere from level 9 cut using a solo heavy cut pad to say a level 2 cut when using the solo finishing pad. With M105, is it recommended to use it in a similar fashion as a 1 liquid system?
It is NOT recommended by Meguiar's. However, I have done it several times, on various paint types, with spectacular results. As is the case any time you use a product outside the realm of the recommendations of Meguiar's- The results can be inconsistent, and the responsibility falls in your lap.

M105 is listed as a compound yet i have seen people using it with a polishing pad and getting near LSP ready. Would it be possible to use M105 with a light cutting solo pad and then using M105 on a finishing pad to get a flawless finish?
Yes! Just refer to the last answer on this one.

[Alfisti]

Re: M105 versus M86 solo creme

Brilliant post Kevin. Definitely a keeper!

[yalerd]

Re: M105 versus M86 solo creme

What I mean is, once you've eliminated defects, you should clean the pad (or change the pad to a fresh one), and use a MINIMUM amount of M105. Do NOT prime the pad with water or wipe-down spray (such as M34 Final Inspection)- Instead, apply M105 to the pad and massage it in so that you've got complete coverage of the pad with the M105. Then, use the slowest speed setting (600-1000 r.p.m.), and FIRM pressure, not light pressure. The abrasive in M105 is very small and exact in particulate size, so a bit more downward pressure than you'd normally use with a non-diminishing abrasive will suffice.

Think in terms of how you'd want to wetsand a panel using, say, Unigrit 3000 grade. Firm pressure ensures an adequate cut. Even if you pushed a little too hard, it's doubtful you'd encounter much scouring or inconsistent cutting, because the particulate size is small and consistent. You'd just cut aggressively, consistently, and quickly. If you did NOT use a deliberate and firm pressure, but rather, you used a very light touch, the effect may be inconsistent cutting of the paint, and when you're using a paper with such a small grit-size, you'd be disappointed in the results.

WOW Kevin what a great description/tip.
It's so well said that I just say it in my mind what you were saying

[Hemin8r]

Re: M105 versus M86 solo creme

Nice write up Kevin. As a matter of fact that is what I just found out this weekend when I was working with m105. I used a slower speed and used a little more pressure & that's when I realized I was actually getting results. How did I find this out? When I was using the yellow application pad with
m105 by hand I noticed I was geting better results than when I was using the rotory with m105 & 8006 pad at a much higher speed. That's when I lowered the rpm's on the rotory and noticed the difference. Thanks again for the write up and for ensuring I wasn't going crazy.

[Kevin Brown]

Re: M105 versus M86 solo creme

Thanks. I wish we could all hop on a party-line, and just have a chat session about all this stuff!

Anyway, I first discovered this 'technique' a couple years ago, when I was playing around with what finally became M86 Cut & Polish Cream.

I have to say, M86 is a FABULOUS product, and should not be overlooked. Currently, I am using two liquids for defect removal and polishing- M86 and M105. I still use M80 Hand Polish now and then, too, but not for defect removal.

I was chasing my tail on a 50th Anniversary Corvette, and couldn't avoid leaving behind a hazy, ultra-fine scouring (left behind after orbital-polishing). I was using the usual suspects- M82, M09, and was encountering less than satisfactory results. That Corvette paint is a real bear.

I decided to try the new liquid- And realized incredible results. After a brief call to Jason Rose to better understand the philosophy of the product, I deduced that a minimum amount of product, combined with firm pressure may do the trick. It did! When I used a fresh W9006 tan pad, speed setting 3 (Meguiar's G100 orbital), and firm pressure, that paint looked as though it was SMILING!

Again- M86 is NOT recommended to be used with an orbital, and you must understand that your results may not mirror my results, but, as I tried everything I could think of first, I thought, "Why not?"

[RDVT4ME]

Re: M105 versus M86 solo creme

Kevin,

You are the Master at experimentation and a great teacher! You are tenacious and always find the right combination.


If you were short and green, we could call you Yoda (star wars)!

[Michael Stoops]

Re: M105 versus M86 solo creme

Kevin,

You are the Master at experimentation and a great teacher! You are tenacious and always find the right combination.


If you were short and green, we could call you Yoda (star wars)!

Sometimes I think Kevin's real secret to getting the awesome finish he achieves is his secret use of The Force. Indeed, I think he's figured out how to mount a double sided W5000 wool pad on the end of a light sabre.

Kevin Brown - Jedi Buffer.

[Sydster]

Re: M105 versus M86 solo creme

Great write-up Kev!

[yalerd]

Re: M105 versus M86 solo creme

Sometimes I think Kevin's real secret to getting the awesome finish he achieves is his secret use of The Force. Indeed, I think he's figured out how to mount a double sided W5000 wool pad on the end of a light sabre.

Kevin Brown - Jedi Buffer.