G110A + Black Paint: Scratches

[Jefferson_One]

I've got a black Mercedes that I spent three days on detailing it ... I used clay, M80, M7, and M26 ... I'm sure I did not miss what I seen this morning.

I can't tell if someone rubbed up against it, or if a cat scratch it, or exctly what happened. But there are scraches on the hood and trunk lid, and some others on the sides. I was able to remove the swirls and other scratches before, but not this time. I don't know what the deal is ... here is what I have:

G110A DA Polisher
8006 Polishing Pads
9006 Finishing Pads
M7 Show Car Glaze
M80 Speed Glaze
M26 Hi-Tech Yellow Wax
ScratchX

I tried ScratchX by hand ... I tried 3 times with it on an 8006 pad. I tried 4 times with M80 on a 8006 pad ... just simply no luck at the scratch. I finally went to M7 on a 9006 and M26 on a 9006.

What could I be doing wrong? I start out around 3 on the dial, then speed up to about 4.5 to 5 until it is broken down, or near so - then microfiber wipe -- repeat -- over and over.

I try to put about 15lbs of pressure on the head, but the adapter plate has a white sticker on it, and I can tell that it seems like a clutch sometimes doesn't want to let it spin too well. If I just 'hold/control' the DA with one hand, very light pressure, it will spin but I feel like there is barely any pressure on the pain.

Maybe I am doing something wrong with the DA ... it just doesn't see to want to spin much - most times, my finder touching the side of the pad can stop it.

I know one of you pros could knock this out in no time ... I've seen this question before, but it gets hijacked or something - can someone order these are far as agressivenss for scratches/swirls:

ScratchX, M80, M82, M83

Should I be using a different pad? Is M80 stronger than ScratchX given the same pad type? Several questions about strengths, combinations, and DA performance.

Thanks for any advise!

[mattaleca]

Re: G110A + Black Paint: Scratches

Try the scratchX on a folded-up corner of a clean terry cloth. As Mike says "Put a little passion behind it" The car should be rocking back and forth. Sometimes you have to do things by hand, it allows you to get alot a pressure just in the one problem spot. I had to do the same on a few stupporn spots but I used M83. Got to really get into it and it might take a few times. Keep at it.

[Hemin8r]

Re: G110A + Black Paint: Scratches

It definitely sounds like you need something more aggressive. I know that the newer Mercedes have the ceramiclear I believe it's called which makes the paint a little harder. I know I've had to use a 7006 & 83 to remove some scratches on a Mercedes E500 that I worked on with the rotory. Did you have good lighting when you worked on the areas with the scratches. Maybe they were already there but not visible due to the lighting.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: G110A + Black Paint: Scratches

Here's something that happens all the time and it could be what the real issue is here?

When you buff out a car, by this we mean when you do the cleaning step and remove the swirls and scratches, what you'll do first is remove all the shallowest swirls and scratches. This is because during the cleaning step you're removing paint and in essence leveling the surface. When you do this the first thing to disappear is the shallow swirls and scratches.

The visual result from this is the paint will look a lot better, a lot more clear and defect free. However the side-effect of this is all the deeper scratches will now show up like a sore thumb because now they are not surrounded by hundreds of thousands of lighter swirls and scratches.

This happens all the time in our Saturday classes as we demonstrate on attendees cars. Sometimes someone will get confused and think we put the scratches into the paint because they didn't see them before we started, so we're pretty good at explaining what we just typed above this paragraph to the class and then they understand.

As for removing the deeper scratches which we coined the acronym RIDS which stands for Random Isolated Deeper Scratches, (because that's what they are), in most cases the DA polisher won't remove them because removing them means leveling the upper most surface of your car's paint with the lowest depth of the deepest scratch.

This means removing a lot of paint and the DA Polisher isn't really the best tool for removing a lot of paint, the rotary buffer is the tool for this kind of job and actually the more preferred method is to sand each scratch out using a fine grit of high quality sanding paper and then removing your sanding marks.

Just to point out, the reason the DA Polisher is so popular is because it's SAFE and the reason it's safe is because it won't remove a lot of paint quickly. So keep everything in the proper perspective. If the DA Polisher removed a lot of paint quickly, it could and would cause a lot of problems for the novice user.

As for the rotating issue that is an issue and there's a thread about it in Hot Topics here,

G100/PC - Should it be spinning all the time?

Especially read my comments starting on page 3

And just to add to this, one of the things Meguair's did when they designed their G110 is they gave it more power and the end-result is it has more rotating power than the Porter Cable unit that so many of us already own.

Now understanding that removing the RIDS in your paint job is going to require you to remove more paint, do you really want to remove them completely? Or perhaps massage them out a little more and then learn to live with them.

Completely removing them is best done using a technique called Feathersanding. You can do a search for some threads on this topic and here's something we wrote a few years ago that shows you the safe way to remove RIDS but at the same time it is kind of risky.

The way we usually remove RIDS is with an advanced technique that we call Feathersanding, which requires the use of Meguiar's Unigrit Finishing Papers and a rotary buffer.



Experience helps a little too!

Below are some pictures from a Side-by-side, Before & After demonstration we did for the 2002 Bimmerfest in Santa Barbara. First we used a rotary buffer to buff out one half of the car and remove all of the light scratches. Next, we took little postage size stamps of Nikken Finishing Paper and sanded each individual scratch till it had been leveled and removed. Next, we used a compound to remove our sanding marks. The results were a scratch-free flawless finish on a 1991 e34 BMW M5.

How To Remove Random Isolated Deeper Scratches using the Feather Sanding Technique

Before



We compounded the entire finish before starting the below process to remove the shallow scratches and expose the deep scratches.


Process


























Random, Isolated, Deeper Scratches, (RIDS), can be removed, but it is an advanced technique that takes skill, patience and the right products to accomplish successfully. (A little luck helps too!)

Do you own a rotary buffer and do you know how to use it?

[Jefferson_One]

Re: G110A + Black Paint: Scratches

Thanks much guys, for the advise ... my paint is not nearly as bad as that BMW by any means .... not much spidering anymore. I can say that after inspection (from last night's work) today in the sun, under pretty much the same conditions and time-of-day outdoors, myself and other co-workers agreed that the situation was better: scratches were less defined and just looked better, but deeper scratches were still there - and some of the more shallow ones also.

The visual result from this is the paint will look a lot better, a lot more clear and defect free. However the side-effect of this is all the deeper scratches will now show up like a sore thumb because now they are not surrounded by hundreds of thousands of lighter swirls and scratches.

I really think this is true in my case as well. Most of the lighter swirls are greatly diminished, and the black is "blacker", but perhaps there sores are sticking out a bit more. To answer hemin8r, this Mercedes paint does seem pretty hard - and I tackled it in the evening, then put it in the garage with halogen shop lights so that I had the same lighting conditions as I did a few weeks ago - and today's comparison outside, was relatively the same time of day and angle of sun.

I am pretty certain that most of my problems would be considered shallow, but there are some RIDS as well. I really like this DA as it is really good for novices like me for sure! Like one member put it, the most likely damage I might do is drop it onto the paint - lol. I guess I should keep at it like mattaleca said, smaller sections until the car rocks. But would I need to use ScratchX or M80 (those are what I have on hand)?

I really don't understand why the DA doesn't want to spin well even with just one hand - I keep it level, but I guess I think it should spin more. It doesn't quite stop but it really slows down (but with pressure applied, a single finger on the edge of the pad can stop it).

Now understanding that removing the RIDS in your paint job is going to require you to remove more paint, do you really want to remove them completely? Or perhaps massage them out a little more and then learn to live with them.

Whew ... excellent point. And that might just be where I'm at with some of these RIDS. I am wet-sanding the headlights and polishing them, and I have 2500 grit paper, but I'm not sure I want to tackle that on my Benz paint just yet - lol - I'm still very cautious.

I do not own a rotary, simply because I am cautious and recognize that I am not a pro - I am afraid that one slip-up and ... opse! I could most likely (like you said, with a little luck) get away and do okay using a rotary, maybe 80% or 90% of the time - it's that 10% error that would hurt so bad. I know I am not ready for that ...

The G110A is a great product and it certainly has helped this paint - if I did need something more aggressive, using the G110A DA, what cleaner would I need to get? I am still not sure where ScratchX fits in as far as aggressiveness ... it looks to me, from least aggressive to more is:

M82 > M80 > M83

Perhaps I might try M83 with a 7006 pad with light pressure? I've got to purchase some more 6" pads and some more 330G 3" pads ... so I could get some other stuff at that time if I can find out what is safe to try ... using the DA, of course

Thanks so much for your help - and the links, Mike! Excellent!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: G110A + Black Paint: Scratches

In order of aggressiveness starting with the most aggressive

M83
M80
M82/M09/ScratchX

If you think your paint is hard, the shrink the size of your work area down.

Also, give this a read through before your next polishing session...

Tips & Techniques for using the G110, G100, G220 and the PC Dual Action Polisher
(These are all similar tools)

[ZoranC]

Re: G110A + Black Paint: Scratches

It is my understanding that newer Mercedeses use ceramic clear and are very hard, thus it is my guess (guess, as I have never worked on one) that G110 + M80 might not end up strong enough (at least I don't remember of anybody saying they were able to do it).

You might want to step up to more aggressive polish and/or different (smaller) pads.

[Jefferson_One]

Re: G110A + Black Paint: Scratches

Thanks! There's a thread I haven't seen before ... I do believe the black 040 Mercedes paint is hard, I should add to my previous post above:

I used some digital scales and took several measurements using both, right hand and left hand, as well as hands together and averaged about 17lbs - as what I think I generally apply.

The other idea I have is that I likely have over expectations for a DA with paint w/scratches such as this ... and finally, operator error is certainly a possibility. I have what I call "stalls" but I'd rather believe that this is more of an indicator of a slight technique issue, rather than anything to do with the DA. I have experimented and I suspect it stalls most when there is slightly more pressure towards the rear (even if I think I am flat) - tilt forward a bit, and it gets faster - but not like a rotary - nor is it supposed too.

Thanks again for this link: G100/PC - Should it be spinning all the time?

Most helpful!