What's the deal with "Layering?"

[DevilDog]

What's the deal with "Layering?"


I have been using NXT on and off all summer long. But the only thing that really scares me about it is its lack of being truly layerable do to its cleaning properties.

Right before the winter months I like to pile on many layers of a product because I cant usually detail from dec to the beginning of march. My vehicle sits outside and is a daily driver and is hardly ever even washed during these times. Maybe a spray off at the local car wash when weather permits but thats about it. I usually go with something from Zaino or KSG for this time of year because of its supposed layering ability.

Now what I have been wandering for sometime is this stuff truly laterable or is it really just hype?

Is 2 layers just as durable as 20?

Is the first 2 thin layers where the durability comes from and the others just sacraficial?

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by DevilDog
I have been using NXT on and off all summer long. But the only thing that really scares me about it is its lack of being truly layerable do to its cleaning properties.

Right before the winter months I like to pile on many layers of a product because I cant usually detail from dec to the beginning of march. My vehicle sits outside and is a daily driver and is hardly ever even washed during these times. Maybe a spray off at the local car wash when weather permits but thats about it. I usually go with something from Zaino or KSG for this time of year because of its supposed layering ability.

Now what I have been wandering for sometime is this stuff truly laterable or is it really just hype?

Is 2 layers just as durable as 20?

Is the first 2 thin layers where the durability comes from and the others just sacraficial?

Hi Devildog,

This is usually never a fun discussion and often times will evolve into a flame war. That said, to start with, here is some information from Meguiar's new FAQ

12. Are multiple coats of wax beneficial? (Layering)

That depends on what effect you are looking for: protection or beauty.

Protection

If your looking for the maximum protection possible, then one or two thin coats of wax, maybe even up to three thin coats of wax, has the potential to create the most surface protection depending on the wax, the surface itself and whether or not sufficient time has passed in-between each application. Of course the law of diminishing returns states that you will not create exponentially greater layers of protection with each application, but Meguiar's knows that a second, and sometimes third application will insure uniform, thorough coverage over the majority of the surface, thus maximizing the protection.

Environmental conditions today demand more frequent washing and waxing in order to prevent costly damage to the outer layers of paint. Just as important as a second, and possibly a third coating of wax is to provide the maximum amount of protection in any one detailing session, (especially on the horizontal surfaces), it is also vitally important that you wax more often to maintain your finish. This is especially true if your car is a daily driver exposed to the elements and parked outdoors most of the time.

Beauty

Will more coats of a product make a finish deeper, darker, and wetter looking with each additional application?

In a word: Possibly

Generally speaking, when trying to take your car's finish to its maximum potential for clarity, gloss, shine and depth of color, there comes a point, or a plateau, that you will reach whereupon additional applications of either polish or wax will not increase the results of any of those categories. Of course, you are more apt to reach this plateau if your skill level is high and if the quality of your products is also very high.

These assumptions also assume that the surface in question is on

• * A brand new car
  * A car with a brand new paint job
  * An older car whose finish has been well maintained and is in excellent condition
  * An older car whose finish has been professional restored to excellent condition

If any of the above holds true, then you will most certainly hit the wall, so to speak, reaching that plateau of perfection whereby further applications will not improve the results of the previously applied coating. Your finish will have reached its maximum potential in appearance value.

After time goes by and this plateau you have previously reached begins to diminish, you can restore the paint to it's maximum potential again, quickly and easily by simply applying a new coat of the right wax or polish. This maintenance procedure will only act to restore the finish back to it's maximum potential and shouldn't be positioned, or confused with making your surface deeper, darker, shinier, etc. than it's maximum potential.

Once you hit 100% max potential, (or that plateau), it's time to stand back and admire the results, not continue to apply more and more coats.

Special Note: Ideas suggesting that repeated applications of a product will continue to increase optic clarity and gloss and protection are misleading you and your own common sense should enable you to understand that a finish, whether black, red, single-stage, clear coat, etc. has a limit to how perfect it can become. 100% of 100 is 100

[Mike Phillips]

Copied and pasted from Meguiar's *NEW* FAQ ,

13. Can Meguiar's waxes be "Layered"?

Meguiar's waxes can be layered, but two things must be tended to when layering waxes. 1) You must use the right waxes ("Layerable" waxes), and 2) You must recognize that at some point, "The Law of Diminishing Returns" takes effect.


Layerable waxes

A Layerable wax, is a wax that the protective ingredients used in the formula (natural and synthetic), are such that the protective layer left behind will not only adhere to the paint, but in subsequent applications, will adhere to itself. It also means that the carrying agents, be they solvent, water or something else, cannot be strong enough or in high enough concentrations to re-liquefy the previously applied layer, thus removing it during your attempt to add another layer.

Layerable waxes are primarily pure waxes, or protectants (as synthetic formulas are referred to) that do not contain chemical cleaners, or solvents that will remove the previous layer.

There is an exception to this rule and that is that it is possible to first apply a cleaner wax, and then apply a pure wax or pure synthetic over it.


The Law of Diminishing Returns
(Thomas Malthus "Essay on the Principle of Population" published in 1798.)

While this theory is generally used to discuss topics as they relate to the areas of economics and politics, it is a model that can also be used to explain in this case, the complex action occurring at the microscopic level on the surface of your car's finish.

The law of diminishing returns as it relates to layering,

A surface, such as an automotive paint, can only hold so much product before all you're doing is removing all subsequent coatings applied to the surface.


That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to cure.

At this point you've reached a plateau (or limit), as to how much wax (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer.

Of course, this all depends upon your definition of the word "Layer". If your definition of the word layer follows that of Webster's Dictionary:

2 a: One thickness, course, or fold, laid or lying over or under another.

Then yes, you can layer to a certain point. For example, you can add multiple layers of layerable waxes until the limit to how much a given surface of an automotive paint can hold before each additional application is simply removed, or replaces a previously applied layer.

You cannot layer to the point of developing a measurable film-build, and this is key; without negatively affecting, or diminishing to some degree, the shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color etc. of the finish

This is especially true if the product you're applying is not clear (in and of itself) to start with. If your definition of the word "layer" follows that of definition used by some on the Internet,

Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)

Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.

Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.

Mike

[Mike Phillips]

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[Tim Lingor]

I totally agree with Mike on this one! After all of these years of detailing, I have not found any benefit to layering much past 2-3 coats of any Last Step Product. I have never had problems with harsh winters or blazing hot summers from applying just 2 coats of #20, or MPPP or, NXT. Just IMHO!

Tim

[DevilDog]

Thanks guys.

Mike I will try to think my through better before asking so I dont open a can of worms. Sorry I was just looking for info not trying to start a flame war.

2hotford as having used all 3 of the sealents wich one do you think is the most durable for the winter months? MPPP?

[Mike Phillips]

Originally posted by DevilDog
Thanks guys.

Mike I will try to think my through better before asking so I don't open a can of worms. Sorry I was just looking for info not trying to start a flame war.

No problem. This is just a topic that has a couple of different schools of thought with some pretty strong and varied opinions.

Mike

[tguil]

Thanks Mike and Tim for the remainders about layering. I like the suggestion to "...find a product that you like and use it often..." whether it adds layers or not.

Tom

[Tim Lingor]

Hey,

After using all three, that is a tough one. I have always had the best success with #20. However, this past winter, I also had a chance to test NXT through brutal weather and it held up very well! I know my answer is not specific as each product has their strong points. However, I will acknowledge that #20 was and still may be my long term favorite!

Tim

[RamAirV1]

NXT Spray Booster Wax seems like it would be great for winter touch ups. It dries quickly at colder temperatures compared to MPPP. It can be used over other Meguiars waxes too. I tried it over MPPP at the end of last winter and it worked great.

I have had great success with MPPP applying two coats in December. It will normally last through most of the winter. I will probably try NXT over the winter since that is what I am using now.

NXT and MPPP are still holding up equally well on the hood of my car.

If the cold weather has already hit when you are applying your winter wax, you might be better off using #20 than MPPP. MPPP takes a very long time to dry when the temperature drops below 50°. #20 and NXT do not seem to have trouble drying in cold weather.

It seems to me that a coat or two of any wax applied every month or so will protect better longer than 6 coats applied all at once.

RamAirV1

[Raven0215]

I just ordered some NXT Wax. Would it be alright to put a layer of NXT wax on and then put a layer of Gold Class over the nxt? I have a black car and I was thinking that the superior protection of the nxt would compliment the deeper look of the gold class well. Also how long should i wait after applying the NXT before I should put the gold class on? Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Also I like to apply the wax by hand and remove by hand. Then i go over the car with a low speed buffer to touch up and give a more "even" look to the car, is this ok?

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Raven0215

Welcome to Meguiar's Online!

Let me see if I can answer your questions,

Originally posted by Raven0215
I just ordered some NXT Wax. Would it be all right to put a layer of NXT wax on and then put a layer of Gold Class over the nxt? I have a black car and I was thinking that the superior protection of the nxt would compliment the deeper look of the gold class well.

Yes you can apply a coat of Gold Class over the top of NXT, this is commonly referred to as Topping.

I have a short how-to article on topping NXT Tech Wax here,

Topping NXT or other products

While this how-to article is about topping NXT Tech Wax the same basic information would apply to topping any wax. I"ve noticed a lot of people like to top NXT with #26 Hi-Tech Yellow Wax. Myself, I see no need to top NXT.

Also how long should I wait after applying the NXT before I should put the gold class on? Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

This is a question that has been talked about quite a bit lately, I've read some opinions by people that don't work for Meguiar's on other forums on the subject that counter what I'm going to write below, you can decide who and what you want to believe.

On the subject of how long to wait before applying a second, or third coat of NXT Tech wax, or apply a different wax over the top of an initial coat of NXT Tech Wax, I spoke with our Vice President of Research and Development and here is what he said.

For maximum protection and beauty, it would be best to allow approximately 12 hours to pass to insure all of the synthetic polymers to fully set-up. He explained that in some areas, the polymers will cure and set-up sooner, while some polymers will cure and set-up later. Because there is no way to measure or know when all of the polymers have fully, and completely set-up, he said for maximum performance, you should allow a window of time, approximately 12 hours to pass.

The above is a guideline for the most detailed oriented, serious enthusiasts that enjoy polishing the paint on their cars and don't mind spending this kind of time on their car's finish.

Sometimes I have the opportunity to wait this long. Here is a car that I applied one coat of NXT Tech Wax to, and then waited until the next day to apply the second coat of NXT Tech Wax to.

1999 Corvette - Repair compound scouring in finish











By the way, I pulled the Corvette out into the sun the next day before applying the second coat of Tech Wax to inspect and it looked great, but the second coat took the results to a higher level. After the second coat, I stopped and returned the car to the owner.

Please don’t think that you have to wait 12 hours or longer to apply a second coat, most of the time I apply the second coat 15 to 20 minutes after removing the first coat because of time constraints, here’s an example of two coats applied back to back on black,





Either way, two thin coats of just about any wax is always going to protect better and look better than one coat, and especially one thick coat of wax. Thick coats just waste product and make removal difficult.

Also I like to apply the wax by hand and remove by hand. Then i go over the car with a low speed buffer to touch up and give a more "even" look to the car, is this ok?

This is perfectly OK. I personally like to remove Tech Wax with an Ultimate Bonnet on either a W-7006 or W-8006 foam pad on about the 5.0 setting of the Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher. We taught this member of the SoCalm Miata club how to do just that in the pictures below...




Hope this helps...

Mike

[Raven0215]

Hey thanks that was a lot of usefull information.

[RamAirV1]

Should the same speed (5.0) be used when removing Tech Wax with an original style Ultimate Bonnet?

I have found wax (and polish) removal with Ultimate Bonnets on a PC to result in the least amount of swirls. I have yet to see any using this method, even on black! Up until now I have set the speed on the PC to 3.5 though.

RamAirV1

[Mike Phillips]

I usually show people how to remove wax with the Ultimate Bonnet on the PC on the 4.0 setting, and as they get the feel for it, bump them up to the 5.0 setting.

Mike