New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

[47FC]

The Car:
I recently painted my 47 ford coupe in acrylic lacquer. It is two toned, black on the upper half and silver metalflake ( medium flake size of .008) on the bottom half.

The condition of the paint:
The silver already has a very good shine and will need very little to bring out a high gloss. My question is about the black, it has a slight overspray haze in some areas with a reasonable gloss everywhere else. It has five color coats and was wet sanded between each color coat with 1200 grit. There are five clear coats over the color, also wet sanded between each coat. There is no orange peel, no fish eyes and no runs. I will be using a variable speed rotary buffer and am interested in your recommendations on which Meguiar products to use to rub out the black paint.

My history with lacquer:
I first painted this car back in 1993, also in black lacquer and painted at home. Back then I purchased a “generic” rubbing compound and polishing compound, and rubbed the car out by hand. Now the product offerings for compounds and polishes are so diverse I am not sure what to use.


Questions regarding rubbing out the black lacquer:
Would you recommend wet sanding the final clear coat, then use an aggressive product such as your Compound Power Cleaner (MIR M8432) , followed by the Fine Cut Cleaner (MIR-M0216) then the Speed Glaze (MIR-M8032) ?



Or, would your recommend not wet sanding the final clear coat, and going directly to the Fine Cut Cleaner the Speed Glaze ?


Or, are there other combinations of your products that would work better on a new black lacquer paint ?


I am open to suggestions. The paint is now two months old and the car is in a heated garage. The hazing I mentioned is very slight. The area to be rubbed out is the hood, roof, trunk, and side body panels down to the body side molding. I will practice with the rotary buffer on a spare trunk lid also in black lacquer before attempting anything on the car.

THANKS !!!!!!!!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

When you say the black has 5 coats of clear over it, is this an old fashioned, solvent-evaporation lacquer paint?

Besides that, you're not working on black paint, you're working on clear paint, that is if we understand what your wrote.

As for a system, if all you're trying to do is bring up the shine and gloss, you don't want to wet-sand the paint first then we have plenty of products that will increase the gloss using a rotary buffer.

It's the step after the rotary buffer that will be important as this will be the step that removes the swirl left by the rotary buffer.

Do you have a dual action polisher like our our G100 or what the rest of the world calls the PC?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

If this is truly what we would call an old fashioned, solvent-evaporation lacquer paint, like the paint that would come on a 1952 Chevy, then just about any compound with a wool pad is going to buff it to a high shine, even though it's no longer what we would call "fresh" paint as it's older than a week and even older than a month.

Can you find out the name of the paint and the part number, at least for the clear portion.

Have you ever wet-sanded an entire car before?

Do you have an air powered DA sander?

Also, do you have a local PBE store that you're already buying product from? If so, take a look to see what they already have in stock on the compound and polish shelves.

[Renny Doyle]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

Hey Mike,

Are you seeing many street rods painted with lacquer anymore? We had our first "new" rod painted with lacquer early this year and it was a recent paint job...it was painted in New Mexico and then sold to a guy in Vegas who we detail for.

I do not know of to many shooting lacquer anymore...do you?

[47FC]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

Mike,

Thanks for your two quick replies.

In your first reply you asked if the paint is truly a solvent-evaporation lacquer paint. Yes, it is a single stage, lacquer solvent paint.

Yes, you understood the posting correctly, I am really dealing with a top coat(s) of clear, not color.

I’m encouraged that you don’t recommend wet sanding before compounding or rubbing out. I didn’t want to wet sand prior to rubbing out, but wanted your recommendation.

My polisher / sander is not dual action or orbital, it’s probably what you consider “PC”. It’s variable speed from 3000 rpm down to 200 rpm. I also have a DA and a car polisher that has a random orbital motion.

Regarding your second reply:
Yes, the paint is a solvent evaporation lacquer paint. You asked for a manufacturer and part number. As most of the hobby knows, the big manufacturers stopped making lacquer long ago. So I purchased the paint from an on-line restoration shop, tcpglobal. The clear coat part number is “CL3245 High Performance Acrylic Lacquer Clear Coat”, their spec sheet and MSDS can be found on their website. I won’t add a link, I’m new here and don’t want to breach protocol on the rules, a quick google of tcpglobal or even "restoration shop" should bring up their web site.

You asked if I’ve ever wet-sanded an entire car before. Yes, way to many times, including between every coat on this project. Yes, I do have an air DA, but was unsure of using it for compounding or polishing.

Regarding a local PBE store, there are a few close by (I’m in Columbus Ohio). I’m not sure which sell the Mequiars product line, so I’ll have to check.



Thanks again for taking the time on my question.

[47FC]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

Renny,
Good observation regarding the lacquer not being used much. I doubt very few if any shops use it anymore. I went with it more out of necessity than any other reason (lower cost and my marginal talent). It is much more forgiving while spraying, allowing imperfections or airborne contaminates to be sanded out almost immediately since it dries so quickly. This helps as I’m a hobbyist shooting the car at home and don’t have a spray booth. Also, lacquer is more cost effective than most of the new urethanes or base coat / clear coat systems.

But, there are many downsides of lacquer. I don’t want my posts to be misinterpreted that I’m promoting it or recommending it. It is not as durable as the base coat / clear coat systems. I also think the newer paint systems have a better finish. Lacquer is more labor intensive to paint and more intensive in it’s long term care and upkeep.

Honestly, if I had the means, or when I get the means, I’ll take my car(s) to a professional for a paint job instead of the heartache and headache of painting at home.

You said you recently detailed a lacquer paint job, do you have any tips or techniques you could share. I’m always listening and learning.

Thanks,
47FC

[the other pc]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

...Are you seeing many street rods painted with lacquer anymore? ...

Not around here. It's illegal in this neck of the woods.


PC.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

Hey Mike,

Are you seeing many street rods painted with lacquer anymore? We had our first "new" rod painted with lacquer early this year and it was a recent paint job...it was painted in New Mexico and then sold to a guy in Vegas who we detail for.

I do not know of to many shooting lacquer anymore...do you?

Usually garage painters or someone restoring a car using a paint that was as close to the original style paint as possible. Worked on a 19665/6 Corvette at the NCRS Regional event and the owner had the Corvette painted with the original style paint. So id does happen.

[Renny Doyle]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

47FC,

The rod we worked on was in fair shape...it was almost brand new with less then 1,000 miles but did have some issues. Our process included a host of products by a number of manufactures so I will keep this generic.

1. Clay
2. Medium duty compound with a light cut wool pad at 1,100 rpm.
3. Polish (swirl remover) with polishing grade wool pad at 1,100 rpm.
4. Polish (swirl remover) with fine polishing grade wool pad at 1,000 rpm.
5. Hand Poured Wax, DA, medium pressure with an ultra soft wool pad.
6. Repeated step 5 with very light pressure on the DA. Pressure is huge with these finishes!

This car went to Barret-Jackson and was sold. Not sure why (or how) the builder used lacquer but we have also found a few recently built choppers with lacquer and one was a California built bike from a reputable builder? Not sure if these guys are sending the tanks/fenders out of state or what? In any case...I hope the above helps a tad! Good luck...

[Larry A]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

A friend of mine is getting his 1938 Chrysler Limo repainted in black lacquer.

[Mike Phillips]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

I’m encouraged that you don’t recommend wet sanding before compounding or rubbing out. I didn’t want to wet sand prior to rubbing out, but wanted your recommendation.

Meguiar's always recommends using the least aggressive products as well as the least aggressive approach/system to get the job done. Lacquer is usually always a very soft paint to work on, both sanding and more importantly buffing. If you've sanded in-between each coat of clear and you say there is little or no orange peel, then you could just compound and skip wet-sanding the last top coat and the compounding will act like sanding and further flatten out the paint which will act to increase gloss as you continue through the buff out process. Of course a quick test would be to sand a small area on the last coat sprayed and only sand for a few strokes and then wipe the area and inspect for orange peel. (Light peel can be hard to see without sanding an area to expose it).

My polisher / sander is not dual action or orbital, it’s probably what you consider “PC”. It’s variable speed from 3000 rpm down to 200 rpm. I also have a DA and a car polisher that has a random orbital motion.

Sounds like a regular rotary buffer which is what you need for the first steps, the compounding and cleaning steps. After you have the finish to the point you want it with the compounding steps, then you're going to want to re-buff the panels to remove any swirls and when you do these steps sooner or later you need to move away from a machine that only rotates a pad on the surface as this will tend to always leave a certain level of swirls or holograms in the paint, that's why most people will do the first one or two steps with the rotary, but for the finish polishing switch to a dual action polisher.

In the past Meguiar's has sold one we call the G100, it's a Porter Cable Dual Action Sander that back in the early 90's Meguiar's started marketing as a paint polishing tool mostly because we already had the backing plate and foam pads in our Professional Line that were already being used this way but only on air powered DA sanders in body shops.

The rest of the world jumped on the bandwagon in the late 90's and just started selling what the online world refers to as the PC, which is short for Porter Cable.

In the last year, Autopia has introduced their own version of this tool called the UDM and starting in 2008 Meguiar's will be offering their own version of the Porter Cable tool called the G110.

All three tools are what we call dual action polishers and all three tools could be used as your second tool to finish the paint polishing process while getting away from a tool that only rotates.

This is a rotary buffer


This is a dual action polisher

Regarding your second reply:
So I purchased the paint from an on-line restoration shop, tcpglobal.

That was our guess... That or you found some old stock at a PBE store that was still usable.

You asked if I’ve ever wet-sanded an entire car before. Yes, way to many times, including between every coat on this project. Yes, I do have an air DA, but was unsure of using it for compounding or polishing.

We should have been more clear, we meant sanded the paint as a part of a buffing process, not a painting process. The difference is that with the buffing process you're going to buff them out versus spray over them, (not remove them).

Lot's of people come to this forum with questions about wet-sanding and one of the things we always 'post' about this topic is this,

Sanding paint is easy, this means putting sanding marks or scratches into the paint, (anyone can do this), it's the removal process that gets tricky and more risky, (machine compounding the paint to remove paint in an effort to remove the sanding marks).

If you decide to sand the final coat before buffing to remove any peel you may find, the fastest and best way to sand the paint would be to use either the Mirka Abralon system or the 3M Trizact system, versus hand sanding, so if you have an air powered DA sander you have the tool, now you just need the sanding disks.

Regarding a local PBE store, there are a few close by (I’m in Columbus Ohio). I’m not sure which sell the Meguiar's product line, so I’ll have to check.

We just wanted you to check to see what's already on the shelf. We have newer products out like Solo but you might not find it on the shelves yet on your local PBE store. We also have two new compounds coming out called M95 and M105 and these products are just now shipping, so you won't find them on the shelves yet.

You'll likely find,

#1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #9 from our traditional Mirror Glaze line. An our 80's series, #85, #84, #83, #82, #81, #80

Any combination of the above products can be made to work, so we always like to see what a person already has in their garage and what's available at their local PBE store.



While we're not Renny...

Renny,
I went with it more out of necessity than any other reason (lower cost and my marginal talent).

It is much more forgiving while spraying, allowing imperfections or airborne contaminates to be sanded out almost immediately since it dries so quickly. This helps as I’m a hobbyist shooting the car at home and don’t have a spray booth.

This is what we first sprayed at the age of 19 and for the same reasons you outlined. Lacquer was always the choice for the garage painter and as pointed out, it's been outlawed here in California and most if not all shops have switched for a lot of reasons but the basic reason would be to match new paint technologies when doing collision work. You can't match a bc/cc system by using lacquer.

You said you recently detailed a lacquer paint job, do you have any tips or techniques you could share. I’m always listening and learning.

Thanks,
47FC

Again, we're not Renny so we don't want to speak for him as he's completely capable of that, we too have buffed out two black lacquer paint jobs in the last year and the thing we always LOVE about working on straight lacquer is that because it tends to be very soft, this means it buffs very easy, that is it's easy to remove defects out of the paint because it's easy to buff paint off the car.

For this same reason you have to be very careful that you don't buff off too much paint too quickly.

1960 Corvette - Garage painted single stage lacquer



1954 Corvette - Single Stage black Lacquer paint











Next week we'll have a recreation of the Batmobile here and using my best guesstimate it's either straight lacquer or some type of enamel. It's single stage, its soft and buffs very very, very easy.

In fact, one of the reasons we're buffing it out at Meguiar's is because we'll have great lighting and this is so important when buffing out someone else's car.

We worked on this over the summer but the car was half out and half in a garage and the shading and glare transitions were not promoting a safe buff-out so we only used a dual action polisher at that time and it still buffed out great.

So what you want to do is to dial in a system that will make one small are look good and then once you feel comfortable with this system you can duplicate it over the rest of the car.

Have you ever used a foam cutting pad or polishing pad on a rotary buffer?

(Some people have only used wool cutting and finishing pads on rotary buffers and it's a pretty dramatic change if how the rotary buffer feels when you're buffing)


Here's next weeks single stage black paint project





And Renny is coming down from Idaho to give us a hand. Thanks Renny!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

47FC,

Our process included a host of products by a number of manufactures so I will keep this generic.

1. Clay
2. Medium duty compound with a light cut wool pad at 1,100 rpm.
3. Polish (swirl remover) with polishing grade wool pad at 1,100 rpm.
4. Polish (swirl remover) with fine polishing grade wool pad at 1,000 rpm.
5. Hand Poured Wax, DA, medium pressure with an ultra soft wool pad.
6. Repeated step 5 with very light pressure on the DA. Pressure is huge with these finishes!

Renny's a Professional and a gentleman, thus because this is a Meguiar's forum we appreciate his generic recommendations, we'll build on this and plug in a few Meguiar's products to give you a guide...

1. Clay - Most paint jobs, especially garage paint jobs will tend to get overspray on them and while you can machine buff the overspray off, machine buffing will also remove good paint. Claying on the other hand will remove the overspray without removing good paint, so this is the safe approach. We know lots of detailers that would skip claying and just compound off any overspray, you can decide which route you want to take. We make 3 different clays and either our Smooth Surface Clay Kit or our Medium Grade clay in our Professional Line will get the job done as will any quality clay from any other company.


2. Either M85 Diamond Cut Compound or M84 Compound Power Cleaner with any of our wool pads will cut this soft lacquer paint and remove any minor defects or flat spots and bring up a high gloss surface.

3. Here's where we'll differ from Renny in that if we've removed our defects OR brought the paint up to a uniform high gloss, then we'll switch to foam over any type of "fiber" pad as the fibers will always tend to put swirls into the paint that you'll have to remove in the next step.

M83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish with either of are polishing pads, the 8" W-8000 Polishing Pad or the 6.5" W-8006 Polishing Pad will work to remove any swirls left by the first step and take the paint to an even higher level of gloss and clarity.

4. At this point you want to switch to a dual action polisher, you can either buy an electric one or use the air powered one you already own.

This is where you need to experiment a little to find the polish that works best to maximize your results so far. M80 Speed Glaze or M09 Swirl Remover 2.0 would both be good choices and you would apply one of these using a W-8006 foam polishing pad at the higher speeds of a DA sander.

This last step should be working out any remaining haze or swirls left by the last rotary buffer step and producing a very clear, swirl-free high gloss finish perfect for waxing, (after at least 30 to 90 days air cure).


5. Apply wax, we would recommend our brand new NXT 2.0 as it will maximize the clarity and gloss of the paint. We're going to be using this on the Batmobile so in about a week you can see the results here on the forum.

Pictures from the Batmobile Showcar Makeover

[Mike Phillips]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

There's a lot of good reading in our Hot Topics forum here,

Hot Topics

Here's an article we wrote a few years ago that kind of goes over a system approach you could follow.

Switching from 3M to Meguiar's - Rotary Buffer Questions?


Since you're likely learning about some products and possibly terms you're not familiar with, here's couple more threads that you might like to read.

The words compound and paint cleaner

The words Clean and Cleaning as defined by Meguiar's terminology

Tips & Techniques for using the G100/PC Dual Action Polisher

[47FC]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

This post is for both Mike and Renny :

Wow, you guys blew me away with all the information, I greatly appreciate you taking the time and effort to share your wealth of knowledge and experience. Your postings are awesome! Very good stuff.

Many thanks again !

Brian, 47FC

[Renny Doyle]

Re: New lacquer paint, seeking compound recommendations.

Brian...you are welcome and Mike...great post. As Mike suggested, we also prefer to finish with foam pads! As a matter of fact, we utilize foam 90% of the time.

On this particular rod...we used a new wool pad that we had found and I was challenged to try in this situation on this rod...so we gave her a spin and it worked...but in most cases...the wool could/would leave behind light marring or distortion as Mike mentioned!

Mike...thanks for the great post with several other topics to take a look at...it's going to be great to work with you next week!

I also want to clarify...I am a Meguiar's guy...we did use a couple Meguiar's products on this rod and within our daily operations our shops use various Meguiar's products daily!

Happy detailing all...