Please explain why so many hours to detail - Clear Coat Failure

[volveaux]

Hi,
I am a newbie here, just bought a PC 7424 and pad kit. Hasn't arrived yet, just bought it online.

I'm restoring a 1985 Volvo (silver) 245 wagon that's pretty bad in places. To keep it short, here are my two newbie questions:

1- Why/how can it take 9 - 20+ hours to detail a car? Specifically, after you wash, use a clay kit, tape and complete preparations of the paint, I am trying to figure how much time the machine is actually running?

2- Can someone please give me examples of something taking several hours to do. For example, I can't see a hood of a car taking more than 15 minutes for one product and another 15 for a second product using a machine. That's 30 minutes for the hood, 30 for the roof, 30 for the trunk, 1 hour per side. That's 3.5 hours.

Again, I am a newbie, and I am sure I am wrong, but would love to know why. It seems like any more time with the machine running would wear the paint down to nothing.

Please educate me, and if there were a class near Dallas Texas I would love to be in it.

Thanks!

Jamie

[BlueZero]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

Welcome to MOL!

It all depends on what you do and how experienced you are. The first time I did the hood on my truck with a PC and #80 it took about 2.5 hours. Just for the hood. I'm faster now. It's not really faster, it's more efficient. I would recommend going over to showcargarage.com and buying their pc dvd. It is a great guide. Otherwise check out this link... Using the G-100 to remove swirls with the Professional Line

[cnfowler]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

Yeah, like BlueZero said, it's not that using a PC is faster, it is just more effective and efficient. Your arm will most certainly give out before your entire car is finished but the PC, unless it breaks, won't ever give out. You'll have the same results at the start of detailing as you will finishing the last panel. Consistency. Besides, I've never met anyone that can make several thousand ocilations per minute by hand. The PC will do it for years to come.

When I did my father's car, it was my first time using the PC (in my case the G-100). I was astounded by the results. I can honestly say no matter how long I would have spent on it by hand it could have never looked like it did with the PC. I'll never go back to using my puny arms. Here's a link to my father's car using the G-100.

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18268

[TrufflePig]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

Hi,
I am a newbie here, just bought a PC 7424 and pad kit. Hasn't arrived yet, just bought it online.

I'm restoring a 1985 Volvo (silver) 245 wagon that's pretty bad in places. To keep it short, here are my two newbie questions:

1- Why/how can it take 9 - 20+ hours to detail a car? Specifically, after you wash, use a clay kit, tape and complete preparations of the paint, I am trying to figure how much time the machine is actually running?

Easy. By the time you wash your tires, wheel wells, and the entire body of the car it adds up. then you gotta dry it properly and make sure its fully dry. then the taping process begins. once that's done you have your army of products.

so you do have major swirls. so you try this.

M80 - not aggressive enough
M83 - perfect. so now you do your whole car with m83.
NXT x 2 - you gotta do the swipe test remember.
then maybe you top if off with M21.

now everytime you do a panel when you're paint polishing/cleaning, as you do go panel by panel, you either take off with a MF or with the machine its up to you. but that takes time. so you do a panel, inspect, if you're happy, move on. if not, it might take two or three passes. remember you're not putting out a fire here, your arm speed is really slow as you want the machine to really break down the product and work its way into your paint's finish to be the most effective.

the machine is only so good as its user. remember that. good machine + bad technique = bad finish.

2- Can someone please give me examples of something taking several hours to do. For example, I can't see a hood of a car taking more than 15 minutes for one product and another 15 for a second product using a machine. That's 30 minutes for the hood, 30 for the roof, 30 for the trunk, 1 hour per side. That's 3.5 hours.

Yes the hood might only take 15 or so. but if you do three steps, M80, M83, NXT and M21 add that up. that's ONE hour right there just for the hood. keep going. now if you do more than one pass with M83, add that up. that's another 15 minutes. you see the picture i'm painting here.

Again, I am a newbie, and I am sure I am wrong, but would love to know why. It seems like any more time with the machine running would wear the paint down to nothing.

the machine rotates and oscilates at the same time. when you apply to machine pressure to the G-100 it actually stops working. so you don't have to worry about that. now, unless you see the paint smoking you have no problem. in terms of wearing the paint to nothing, that will take a long time. the amount of paint you take off when you clean/polish your car is at times next to nothing. and unless you're using the most aggressive product everyweek you have nothing to worry about.

remember, the first time you polish/clean your paint, if you do a REALLY GOOD JOB, you won't have to do that for a while. and the second time you go to wax you could possibly go straight from MEGS #66 (a cleaner/wax) or even Colour-X to M21. and that's it.

Please educate me, and if there were a class near Dallas Texas I would love to be in it.

Thanks!

Jamie

ask all the questions you need answers to. don't be shy. and don't be afraid. plenty of good people to help you out.

BEST OF LUCK!!!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

Something I wrote a long time ago...

"Paint is a thin, delicate coating that is easily scratched and easily dulled. Once it's
scratched and dulled it requires the right products, the proper techniques and the human
elements of care and passion to remove the defects and restore a swirl-free flawless finish"

You can quote me on that.

These were between 12 and 16 hours

1963 Corvette Stingray

Over the years I have met hundreds of people that want to learn how to machine buff, one of the things I like to share with them is that there is a lot of difference between watching someone demonstrating how to use the rotary and working a small, easy to buff section like an area on the hood, and taking a rotary buffer to the entire car.

It takes practice to get experience and to actually be good at it and it's this practice, as in buffing out many cars in order to to have the upper body strength including back, shoulders, arms and hands to call buffing with a rotary buffer just as easy as using a dual action polisher.

There is a tremendous amount of difference between demonstrating a small section on the hood of a car and buffing out the entire car.

For first timers, if it's you're own car you can always do a section at a time, for example the hood one Saturday, a fender the next Saturday, and so on...

Remember, depending on the quality you're trying to achieve, a super high quality rotary buff-out, (assuming the finish is in horrible condition to start with and needs compounding), means

• * Washing the car
  * Claying the car and wiping off the residue
  * Performing a test spot or two to dial in your system and make sure you system will work. (Alway test your product and process in a small area first to make sure you can made a small area look good before tackling the entire car.)
  
  * Taping off the car if you're so inclined. (Often times because of the number of times you're going to run the buffer over the panels of the car the potential for excess splatter in all the body seam, trim crevices, moldings, etc., you'll find it fast to tape off a car really well instead of going back over the car at the very end and digging any excess splatter out of the cracks with a toothbrush. This in part depends on your personal idea of a quality buff job as some people don't care if they leave splatter in the cracks and crevices, and some guys are so good they don't splatter at all so they don't tape off, everything depends on you)
  
  * Step 1 - Rotary buffer compounding - Then wipe off
  * Step 2 - Rotary buffer light machine cleaning. Usually with a cleaner/polish - Then wipe off
  * Step 3 - Optional Re-Polish entire car using a dual action polisher to insure all swirls are removed using the previously applied cleaner/polisher.
  
  * Step 4 - Apply first coat of wax
  * Step 5 - Optional Apply second coat of wax
  * Step 6 - Remove tape and give car a final wipe. (Assuming you taped off any trim or body seams etc...

The point is, tackling an entire car with the rotary buffer and doing a super high quality job can take the entire day. In the above example, if you did all of the steps, you will have wiped-off each panel 6 times, not including wiping off the water after washing the car), and with each step, you must focus more an more on doing your best to carefully wipe off any residue because after the second and third steps you will have, or should have removed all but the deepest scratches and you don't want to be putting any more back in as you wipe product off.

Remember, after the first two rotary buffer steps, there's a good chance you wont be as energetic as you were when your first started, that is you may be a little tired, yet you still have a long a number of steps to do.

If you're buffing out a car for a customer, you have to pretty much do it all in one day, I know a few guys the are able to spread one car out over two days and charge for both days.

If you're only working on your one car and you don't have to put the car back onto the street any time soon, you can take your time and finish the process at your leisure.

If you have to put the car back into service that day or the next day, then you can do a section at at time, performing the entire process to the section so that when you put the car back into service, the areas you have buffed are also polished and waxed.

So it's somewhat true that a rotary buffer is just as safe and easy to use as a dual action polisher in the context of holding the tool and moving it over the panel, but in the context of tackling what I call a complete, that is taking on a car that has a horrible finish and needs a multiple-step process performed starting with the compound process using a rotary buffer with the goal of producing a true show car finish, (I don't know what other full-time Professional Detailers call it), then I would say that the answer is No, a rotary buffer is not as easy to use as a dual action polisher or even an orbital buffer.

It's a lot of work to take a diamond in the rough and turn it into a glistening gemstone starting with a rotary buffer.



Swirls throughout the finish of this 1963 black Corvette Stingray



After wiping down and claying and before taping off.



Extensively taped-off. At this stage the finish had been rotary buffed twice and then wiped down in preparation for final polishing with the dual action polisher.


End results







And then it's alway nice to have 30 plus Corvette owners on hand to inspect the result in bright sunlight the next day...





Taken from this 1999 Corvette Write-up with 100 replies and over 30,000 views



The scouring on the door was caused by hand applying some type of compound. Below is a close-up of the damage.



I'll probably have to machine clean the finish in order to remove the defects. Afterwards, I plan on machine polishing the entire finish first with a rotary buffer, second with a Porter Cable. Then I'll apply two coats of NXT Tech Wax.


Here are some before shots of the finish in its current condition,

Deck lid



Hood (note the buffer swirls)



Besides the scouring in the finish, a local detailer tried to restore the seats with what looks like some kind of paint, or dye.




Here's a picture of the car completely covered with the #83 after polishing with the G-100.



To remove the #83 residue, I'm going to use a combination of 100% cotton terry cloth towels and microfibers polishing cloths. I'll go around the car once and remove a majority of the #83 with terry cloth, and then follow up with a Meguiar's Ultimate Wipe to remove all remaining residues. I prefer to remove the bulk of the cleaner/polish with terry cloth because I feel the nap of a good terry cloth towel helps to slice into and break-up the continuous film-build laying on the surface better than a plush microfiber polishing cloth.


That night, I applied one coat of NXT Tech Wax. I allowed it to dry for at least 20 minutes after I applied to the entire car and then I removed it by hand using a Meguiar's Ultimate Wipe microfiber polishing cloth.

The finish looked good in the garage but it was after midnight, so I walked away to allow the polymers to set-up over night. The next day, I applied a second coat around 11:00am. I allowed this one to dry for about 15 minutes before wiping it off, this time with a microfiber bonnet on the G-100.

After removing a majority of the wax, I edged the car, and gave it a final wipe-down by hand with a new, clean microfiber polishing cloth.

I then took some reflection shots while the car was still in the garage. I have some Meguiar's poster boards on the wall in the garage. Here's a reflection shot,




Lynn finished restoring the seats by removing the dye first. She then re-cleaned the seats again using Meguiar's

Gold Class Rich Leather Aloe Cleaner

Followed by conditioning the leather with,

Gold Class Rich Leather Aloe Conditioner

Here's the before,



Here's the after,



And Here's a shot of the interior after she detailed it,




Below are some after shots of the finish with two coats of NXT Tech Wax,

Here is a shot of the sun reflecting off the deck lid,



Here's a reflection shot of Tech Wax on the deck lid,
(I wiped the bottom of the bottle clean and set it ever so gently onto the finish)



And here's a reflection shot of some shrubs on the hood,




Working on newer Corvettes like these must be done carefully. The paint is very hard, but at the same time easily scratched. I have instructed the owner on how to wash the car using only high quality mitts and car washes formulated for automotive paints.

I also spent some time showing him how easy his finish will be to maintain using Meguiar's Quik Detailer, Tech Wax, and NXT Spray Wax.

Although this car was a lot of work to completely buff out, it was a lot of fun and I'm glad the owner trusted me with his baby. (He kissed it before letting Lynn drive it away!)



Worst thing about the entire detail is now Lynn want one!




You just can't rush quality.

Creating a show car finish requires time, time to allow a pad, chemical and some type of action (rotating or oscillating), to take place over each square inch of the car.

Moving a polisher faster doesn't mean better results, usually the opposite.

Just to note, in my entire life I've never ever claimed to be fast, not once. I don't aim for speed I aim for show car results. I don't go slow by any means, but I never rush a procedure - I invest the appropriate amount of time required to do the job right the first time.

With Meguiar's products, I've never had to do a job a second time.

FWIW

[volveaux]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

Many thanks for the replies! I think I am going to post pictures of the before, because I am SURE ya'll will say, "irreparable - needs paint job!" I am hoping to make miracles happen here.

First, my car is silver. The sides and roof I think can be restored to some serious shine. The hood, looks like 1 half has 1mm of oxidation and the other side has what looks like a hotspot (worn down to primer) surrounded by a 2 foot radius of white cake and scratches deep like it was keyed (it was not).

So, for the hood, I'm thinking cut down to paint, polish like hell and rebuild a shine.

In a nutshell, for this hood it's like trying to get the right compound to do what sandpaper would normally do. (I will sand if needed).

So, here's what I am planning:

1. M #4 cutting and cleaner
2. M #83
3- Polish
4-Wax

Option A - Sonus FX-1 (came with the PC 7424)
Option B - 3M Finesse It - II. (Don't know how to use this on cars, only boats.)

So, we'll see!

jamie

[Chex]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

I guess that Finesse It should not be an option even though it can be used in paints. you could use something like perfect it II rubbing compound. And if we can assist you in anything, count on us.

BTW, I'd like to add another point of view about "why so many hour to detail"

lets take an easy one: washing a car. why do some people take up to 2 hours?

now we can do the same question for a detail: why 12 hours or so?

the answer: passion and perfection (even though time is the variable).

some people do good jobs, but some people detail their cars as if they were making a super work of art, and that's why they take that much time. and it can be applied to any aspect of life: your person, your way to treat people, etc.

[TrufflePig]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

Many thanks for the replies! I think I am going to post pictures of the before, because I am SURE ya'll will say, "irreparable - needs paint job!" I am hoping to make miracles happen here.

First, my car is silver. The sides and roof I think can be restored to some serious shine. The hood, looks like 1 half has 1mm of oxidation and the other side has what looks like a hotspot (worn down to primer) surrounded by a 2 foot radius of white cake and scratches deep like it was keyed (it was not).

So, for the hood, I'm thinking cut down to paint, polish like hell and rebuild a shine.

In a nutshell, for this hood it's like trying to get the right compound to do what sandpaper would normally do. (I will sand if needed).

So, here's what I am planning:

1. M #4 cutting and cleaner
2. M #83
3- Polish
4-Wax

Option A - Sonus FX-1 (came with the PC 7424)
Option B - 3M Finesse It - II. (Don't know how to use this on cars, only boats.)

So, we'll see!

jamie

awesome.

you might just need to follow M83 with M80 if you see some slight hazing or streaks M80 will remove this.

cheers

GOODLUCK!!!

tell us how long it took to do all this and share your story via pics.

[volveaux]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

OK, here are my before pics. Just a disclaimer, this is a 1985 car. The sides and roof, I am sure I can get results I can live with. The hood, I know I can paint if needed. I am just really curious what kind of job I can do with a PC7424 and some chemicals.

If anyone has any suggestions, please chime in. I'm thinking #83 followed by #4. If anyone thinks I need something tougher to cut this oxidation, please let me know.

Here is the link to the photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamiebabineaux/sets/72157594571396263/

Here are some photos:
The car the day I bought it a month ago. The hood spot is dew in this photo:







The white streak below is sunlight!






So, these are the pics!

Jamie

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

We've looked at the pictures and they show what we call

Clearcoat Failure


In this picture,




You have worked on the left hand or passenger side of the roof, but the area that is still white is a picture of clear coat failure, there is nothing you can do to fix this except to repaint the car. Chances are good the areas you've worked on that now look better will begin to go back to how they looked before and possibly get worse because now you've removed some of the clear coat.

Clear Coat Failure is not a problem --> on <-- the paint, as in on the surface, but it is a deterioration or breakdown of the paint itself, by this we mean the damage is --> in <-- the paint, as throughout the matrix of the layer of paint.

This is why you can't apply a topical paint cleaner to clear coat failure and fix the problem.

Does that make sense?

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

In this picture,



It looks like all of the clear coat is now missing in the section on the hood?




Would you do us a favor and take a white cloth and a paint cleaner that is whitish in color, like ScratchX and then rub the paint cleaner in just the darker gray area and then turn the cloth over and see if you're pulling color?

Then post your results here.

[volveaux]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

Yes, that makes sense. I guess my question now is, if repainting the car is the solution, is there anything I can do to improve the appearance in the interim?

By that I mean, if I have to cut through the clearcoat to get to paint, then polish the paint, and wax to protect it - will that work?

I understand that paint with no clearcoat will continue to change appearance as the wax wears off.

This is a $700 car that I am wanting to use as a daily driver and am wondering what can be done to improve the appearance - even if just temporarily.

Thanks!

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

Just to note, this thread started out as a question about how long it takes to detail a car and why it takes the time it takes.

Now it's a thread on the detailing of a Volvo with clear coat failure.


Just a suggestion, in the future it would probably be better to start a new thread for a new topic.

[volveaux]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail

I had a 1991 Red Ford Explorer. After about 7 years the red looked like hell. I learned there was no clear coat. I used MeGuiar's Paint Cleaner, then Polish, then wax and the red returned to new. Of course I pulled color on that job. There was only so much life left in exposed paint as it thins each time. But I could work with it.

So, I am wondering, can I buff out the clear coat and return to paint and work with that as long as possible?

[volveaux]

Re: Please explain why so many hours to detail - Clear Coat Failure

New thread started called, "Clear Coat Failure?"

Thanks!