Medium or Heavy cut for Rotary buffer for water stains

[stikman33]

Hey guys, first post, this looks like a great board!

Here is the situation, my wifes car (and she likes her car to look nice) got some pretty heavy water spots when one of my front yard sprinklers decided to give it a shower. Well we were on a 2 week vacation, and they baked in really heavy and well.

Tried removing them with Vinegar, it lightened them, but didn't remove them. Then tried some hand applied wax, didn't touch it. Finally busted out my rotary buffer (a Craftsmen Model, was given to me, it spins and swivels though similar to the dual action type) and tried a cutting mat with the medium cut cleaner/polisher from Meguire's.

I applied it as instructed last night and i still have some light staining in certain spots. I worked the compound till it appeared dry as instructed but i could still see the edges of the stains.

Should i move up to the heavy compound and try to take it down a bit more, or just keep working it with my medium compound but apply it another 1-2 times to see it if works. This is tough because it is the front left side of the car, as well as the entire roof, hood, and trunk lid.

Any help or advise would be highly valued. We just got married a couple months ago, and really dont want to budget to pay to get it done professionally. Thanks again!

Daniel Dayton

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Danial,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online!

First, just to make sure we're talking about the same category of tool, does the buff you're using resemble something like one of these two tools?





Or like this tool?

[stikman33]

It looks nearly exactly like the first one you posted, the one on the top left.

Although i do have an 8" angle grinder similar to what that guy in the bottom picture is holding. Wonder if i can put a buffer attachment on it.

Daniel

[Mike Phillips]

What kind of car is your wife's car? As in year, make and model?


Besides the above, here's an article that explains a little bit about the differences between what we refer to as a traditional orbital buffer and a rotary buffer.

Taken from here,

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12996

Ask the Expert - Tools of the Trade

Rotary Buffers & Random Orbital Polishers.
There are two types of machines commonly used in the detailing industry and in this article we'll do our best to explain the differences between these two different types of machines as well as which machine works best for which procedure and more important, which tool will works best for your car care needs. We also know there is a lot of fear surrounding the use of a machine to polish the paint on a car because of the perceived risk of either burning the paint, or instilling swirls into the paint. We think after reading this article you will have the confidence to try machine polishing with one of these two machines while understanding when to turn to a professional when circumstances require the other machine.


There are two primary types of tools or machines that are commonly used in the detailing industry to either correct imperfections in the paint, or apply different types of polishes and waxes. These would include,

• Direct Drive Rotary Buffers
• Random Orbital Polishers

The primary difference between these two types of tools is the manner in which the pads move when these tools are powered-up. Let's take a close look at both types of tools and the way the drive mechanism operates.


Rotary buffers
Rotary buffers are drastically different in the way they work compared to Random Orbital Polishers. The drive unit used in a rotary buffer is referred to as a direct drive motor. What this means is the auger, (the threaded part to which the backing plate attaches), is driven directly off the electric motor and drive mechanism. This results in a powerful rotating motion that spins a buffing pad in a clockwise direction as you look at the rotary buffer from behind, as though you were holding it while buffing on a panel.



Because the rotary buffer is a direct drive machine, it can do a lot of work very quickly. By the word work, we mean, the rotary buffer has the ability and the power to remove a lot of paint from off the surface very quickly. Meguiar's understands the average person doesn't want to remove precious paint, or film-build from their car's finish; however, sometimes removing paint is necessary in order to create a high gloss, defect-free finish. Example: If you have a scratch in your car's finish, say someone keyed your car, or a cat jumped up on the hood and left behind claw scratches, or even the light scratches caused by improper car washing using tatty wash mitts. From a horizontal point of view of your car's paint, these scratches would look like this,




In order to remove these scratches, you will need to remove enough paint surrounding the scratches in order to make the surface level. Example: In the below pictures, the clear coat paint shaded in pink will be removed.




As you can see in this example, removing the scratches will require removing quite a bit of paint material, and in the case of the deep key scratch (where the arrow is pointing), you will not be able to completely remove it without exposing the base, or color coat of paint. This is a situation where you are better off improving the scratch, not completely removing the scratch.




Second Example: Many cars, after being painted, are wet-sanded after the paint has initially dried in order to remove any orange peel or to bring the surface to a show car quality finish. While wet-sanding removes flattens out and remove defects from out of the paint it tends to leave it's own sanding marks in the paint, which must then be removed typically by buffing over the sanding marks using a cutting compound, with some type of cutting pad on a rotary buffer. The cutting compound abrades the paint, removing, or leveling the finish until it?s completely flat.

Sanding marks left in the paint after wet-sanding



Removing enough paint to remove the sanding marks



If done successfully the result will be flat or level surface that will polish to a high gloss.



After the surface is buffed flat, it will then be polished with a cleaner/polish like Meguiar?s M-83 Dual Action Cleaner/Polish with the rotary buffer to restore a swirl-free, high gloss finish. Rotary buffers are necessary to do both of these procedures because both of these procedures require that some portion of the paint is removed and in the hands of a trained professional, the rotary buffer is the fastest and most effective machine for removing below surface defects, or in other words, the rotary buffer is the fastest and most effective machine available for removing small particles of paint in a controlled manner with the end-result being a more perfect looking finish.

Rotary buffers most commonly look similar to these machines in the pictures below.





Random Orbital Polishers
The motors and drive units used to build random, orbital polishers offer two different mechanical actions to spin the buffing pad when cleaning, polishing or adding a coating of wax to an automotive finish. Unlike a rotary buffer however, instead of using a direct drive mechanism to rotate the buffing pad in one direction, orbital polishers use a mechanism that causes the pad to both rotate in a circle and at the same time the pad oscillates in an eccentric pattern inside this larger, main rotating pattern or action of the machine...

The combined rotating action and eccentric action of a Random Orbital Polisher.


Here are some examples of some common traditional orbital polishers..




Unlike a rotary buffer however, Random, Orbital Polishers are much safer and dramatically less likely to instill swirls or burn-through the paint for a number of different reasons including the slower speed of the rotating action, the buffering-effect the oscillating action provides, and in the case of some random orbital polishers, the drive mechanism includes a clutch which will allow the pad to stop rotating when too much pressure is applied the machine when the pad is in contact with the paint.


Meguiar's G100 Dual Action Polisher
It is this latter random orbital polisher that Meguiar's offers call the G100 Dual Action Polisher, that has gained in popularity in the last half a dozen years and has introduced a plethora of enthusiasts to the world of machine polishing because it's both very effective at removing below surface defects such as swirls and scratches, while remaining incredibly safe for use by just about anyone, even children because it's small, lightweight and easy to operate.


Here is an example of Meguiar's Dual Action Polisher



A young girl using Meguiar's G100 Dual Action Polisher to work on her parents Mercedes-Benz.



The G100 Dual Action Polisher is so safe that in fact it's virtually impossible to apply too much concentrated pressure in one place at one time and instill swirls or burn the paint because anytime too much pressure is applied, the rotating and oscillating action will stop, thereby protecting your car's finish.

Because these types of machines oscillate instead of rotate, they will not instill the dreaded buffer swirls or holograms into your finish as long as you use the appropriate chemicals, buffing pads and bonnets. This safety feature makes these machines highly popular with enthusiasts who would like to use a machine but at the same time, are afraid of burning or inflicting swirls into their car's finish.

Both the G-100 and Traditional Orbital Polishers offer a number of benefits:

• Uncomplicated ? Remove from box, attach buffing pad or bonnet, plug in, turn on, start buffing.
• Versatile ? Can be used for cleaning, polishing, and applying waxes.
• Takes most of the labor out of the process, the machine does the work, all you do is hold it.
• Faster, more thorough - you can cover more area and do a better job with a machine.
• Creates a more uniform, higher gloss finish than your hands could ever do.
• Pushes polishing oils and protective waxes into the pores and microscopic surface imperfections far better than your hands could ever accomplish.

In recent years, Meguiar's G-100 has become the machine of choice over the older style Random Orbital Polishers for a number of different reasons:

• Smaller size and lighter weight makes them easier for anyone to use.
• Very easy to control, requires no previous experience or skill to use correctly.
• Smaller size enables you to work on small panels and tight areas easier with better control.
• More options for buffing pads and bonnets.
• Velcro? interface makes changing between pads fast and easy.
• Variable Speed options provide more power to remove swirls and scratches.

Although the Meguiar's G100 Dual-action Polisher can remove swirls and scratches, they do not offer the same level of power and force to be used to remove sanding marks over an entire car, this is a job for the rotary buffer and a trained professional.


Remember, using a rotary buffer successfully requires both skill and experience. If you use a rotary buffer and are not skilled in its use, you can easily apply too much pressure to the paint and burn right through it, requiring a new paint job.

[Mike Phillips]

If you really want remove these water spots you need to invest in a dual action polisher, a pad kit and a cleaner/polish like M80 Speed Glaze plus a wax.

The rotary buffer is a tool best left to seasoned experts and with this tool you'll be forced to follow a multiple step process that will require a lot of time and energy on your part and if you make a mistake you won't be very happy.

The traditional orbital buffer is to in-effective at removing small particles of paint which is how you remove a below surface defect like a Type II Water Spot.

The best do-it-yourself solution is to get yourself a dual action polisher. The next best option is to try to find a professional detailer that knows what they are doing and have them remove the defects. (good luck with this one).

The last option is to learn to live with the defects.

Here are to more articles that will hopefully shed some light as to what you're dealing with. Just to note, both of these articles as well as a plethora of great information can be found in the Information Station

Here's the link,

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/for...?s=&forumid=82



How To Remove Water Spots off Automotive Paints


Swirls, scratches and water spots are the three most common paint defects car enthusiasts struggle with when it comes to removing them and preventing them from coming back. In this how-to article we'll take a look at water spots, where they come from, how to remove them and also how to prevent them.

There are two basic kinds of water spots or water marks found on automotive paints.

• Type I Water Spots - Above Surface Mineral Deposits
• Type II Water Spots - Below Surface Water Spot Etchings

Type I Water Spots
Type I Water Spots are what Meguiar's refers to as Above Surface Bonded Contaminants. A Type I water spot is some type of deposit, often times a mineral deposit that was suspended in the water source to begin with, then after the water evaporated off the finish the mineral is left behind where it bonds to the finish usually in a circular or pattern or shape.


Type I Water Spots - Mineral deposits sitting on top of the paint







How to Remove Type I Water Spots
If you discover Type I Water Spots on your car's finish, it will often times require the use of both detailing clay and a paint cleaner to completely remove all trace of the mark left behind.

• Step by step process for removing Type I Water Spots
  
  Step 1 - Wash & Dry the Car
  First wash the car thoroughly using a quality car wash to remove any loose contaminants and to also remove any portion of the mineral deposit that has not yet bonded to the paint. After washing the car, dry the car to remove any standing water and to prevent further accumulation of Type I Water Spots.
  
  Step 2 - Clay the Paint
  Use Meguiar's Smooth Surface? Clay Kit to clay all affected paint panels. Meguiar's Detailing clay is a special clay that you knead into a wafer or patty, somewhat like a pancake, and then rub over the finish using Meguiar's Quik Detailer as a lubricant between the clay and the paint. As you're rubbing the clay over the finish, the specialized abrasives will loosen and remove any deposits sitting on top of the paint and trap them into the clay and our clay will do this without instilling scratches into the paint.
  
  Because as you're claying, you're removing these mineral deposits and trapping them into the clay itself, you'll want to take your clay patty and fold it into itself and then re-knead it to expose a fresh side of clay. Also keep a microfiber polishing cloth handy and wipe down the clayed area as you work to remove any excess Quick Detailer from the paint so that you won't have to re-wash the car.
  
  Repeat the above process until you've clayed all of the horizontal panels on your car and possibly even the vertical panels should you discover Type I Water Spots on the sides of your car's paint.
  
  Step 3 - Clean the Paint with a Paint Cleaner
  After claying the finish, re-inspect the affected areas, the paint should look smooth and clean as well as feel smooth like a piece of new glass. If you see any trace outlines in the paint where the water deposits were previously, then you'll now need to use a paint cleaner like ScratchX to remove these imperfections out of the paint.
  
  Any water spots or marks left in the paint after claying the paint are actually etchings in the paint and must be removed using a paint cleaner. Water Mark Etchings are what Meguiar's calls, Below Surface Defects, that is these water marks are where the mineral deposits, (left after the water evaporated off the finish), actually etched into, or ate into the paint. This is why the detailing clay did not completely remove these marks, it's because these marks are below the surface and detailing clay only removes contaminants sitting on top of the surface.
  
  ScratchX is a paint cleaner that uses Meguiar's Microscopic Diminishing Abrasive Technology to safely remove swirls, scratches and other below surface imperfections out of the paint. Simply apply ScratchX using a clean, soft foam applicator pad and then work the product against the finish with firm pressure. Work a small area or directly on the affected area for 2-3 minutes and then immediately remove any leftover product from the paint and inspect. If the mark is no longer visible, apply a coat of wax to protect the paint. If the mark is still visible, then repeat paint cleaning step using ScratchX. Some swirls, scratches and water spot etchings will require multiple applications to remove depending on how hard the paint is and how deep the defects are.

Type II Water Spots - Etchings below the surface

Type II Water Spots are what Meguiar's refers to as Below Surface Defects. A Type II Water Spot is actually an etching in the surface where whatever was in the water was strong enough in its chemical composition to actually eat or dissolve the paint and thus etch into the paint.


Type II Water Spots - Etchings below the surface




Close-up of same photo above





If you discover Type II Water Spots in your car's finish, you can use a paint cleaner by hand such as ScratchX and the procedure outlined above in Step 3 for removing below surface etchings left by Type I Water Spots, or you can use a machine applied product such as a Meguiar's paint cleaner, or cleaner/polish to remove the water spot etchings using Meguiar's G100 Dual Action Polisher.

Meguiar's Dual Action Polisher will safely clean your car's finish removing a small amount of paint in an effort to level, or smooth-out the paint. The goal is to remove just enough paint to level the upper most portions of the surface with the lowest depths of the defect you're trying to remove. In some cases you may want to check with a seasoned professional for their advice before attempting to remove below surface defects like Type II Water Spots.


Important Note: Anytime you use detailing clay and/or a paint cleaner on your car's finish, you need to reapply a coat of wax to the paint as detailing clay and paint cleaners will remove any previously applied wax off the paint.



How to prevent water spots from coming back
There are two important things you can do to help prevent water spots from coming back, one is to remove water from the finish before it can dry and potentially leave a water spot. Meguiar's offers a number of different tools to help you do this including, our waffle weave Water Magnet Drying Towel, our Microfiber Super Suede Drying Towel, and our Super Thick Natural Chamois which comes in 4 different sizes.

Besides keeping water off your car, the next best thing you can do is to keep maintain a good coat of wax on all the painted surfaces, to help with this Meguiar's offers a number of different waxes to suit everyone's preferences including, NXT Generation? Tech Wax, Gold Class? Liquid Wax and Deep Crystal System Carnauba Wax.


What it means to remove a scratch out of anything...


In order to remove a scratch out of anything, metal, plastic glass, paint, etc. You must remove material around the scratch until the surface is level or equal to the lowest depths of the scratch or scratches.

The below diagram if for paint, the the same thing applies to just about an surface material or coating.



In essences, you don't really remove a scratch, you remove material around a scratch.

Then the big question is, is the material or coating workable, as in can you abrade small particles of it and leave behind an original looking surface. For example, some things you can abrade, (remove the scratch), but you can never completely remove all of your abrading marks, thus you can't really fix the problem, all you can do is exchange one set of scratches of a different set of scratches.

The next questions is, how thick is the surface material you're working on or the coating. You are limited to what you can do by the thickness of these to things, (surface coating or surface material), and whether or not this surface is workable.

Sometimes you don't know what you can so until you try. It's always a good idea to test your choice of products, applicator materials and application process, (By hand or by machine), to an inconspicuous area. If you cannot make a small area look good with your product, applicator and process, you will not be able to make the entire surface look good. It's always a good idea to test first and error on the side of caution, versus make a mistake you cannot undo.

[stikman33]

The car is a 2004 Ford Focus 4 door. Grey in color. So it looks like i need to get a more serious buffer to really get into the etching. Would some type of buffer wheel on the end of my 8" grinder work alright?

Daniel

[Tim Lingor]

Originally posted by stikman33
The car is a 2004 Ford Focus 4 door. Grey in color. So it looks like i need to get a more serious buffer to really get into the etching. Would some type of buffer wheel on the end of my 8" grinder work alright?

Daniel

No. Grinders usually rotate at a no load speed of 6000 - 8000 rpm.

A rotary polisher is usually operated between 1000 - 1700 rpm. When you get above, 2000 rpm, it is extremely easy to burn the paint.

Tim

[Mike Phillips]

Re: Medium or Heavy cut for Rotary buffer for water stains

***Bump***

[benzw205]

Re: Medium or Heavy cut for Rotary buffer for water stains

hello, sorry but I need a confirmation. I should not use a rotary buffer with Meguiar water spot remover ? I should do it with pads ? Thanks a lot.

[Nick Winn]

Re: Medium or Heavy cut for Rotary buffer for water stains

hello, sorry but I need a confirmation. I should not use a rotary buffer with Meguiar water spot remover ? I should do it with pads ? Thanks a lot.

Hi benzw202,

Our Water Spot Remover is not recommended to be used with a rotary machine.

Could you possibly start a new thread & provide us a detailed explanation of what you had, machine, pads, liquids, and also what you are trying to acheive? Below is a link to our Detailing 101 Forum, which would be a great section to post a new thread in:

https://meguiarsonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?22-Detailing-101