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caldwdp
Nov 1st, 2005, 09:42 AM
Had a total repaint of my car done about three weeks ago. The shop said not to wax until 4-6 weeks. What would be a good product to use the first time. I am going to AZ in DEC so I want to have somthing on the car then. The paint was a polyurethane with sealer. Could I use your sealer product thanks.
Dave

Murr1525
Nov 1st, 2005, 10:06 AM
No, you wont be able to use any wax, or sealant. The best thing for now would be #80, which can be used by hand or machine, as it can offer a little protection at least.

BondoKing
Nov 1st, 2005, 02:32 PM
After the thirty days you should be fine... What brand of paint did they use if you know, and what has your climate been where you live... Also did they cut and buff or is it straight from the gun job, right out of the booth and then to you??

Matthew

Accumulator
Nov 1st, 2005, 02:49 PM
#80 is great for fresh paint that needs a little correction. I generally don't do much correction until it's cured; I use #3/#5(my fave)/#7/#81/Deep Crystal Step #2 until the outgassing is complete.

I wait at least 60 days before I wax/seal, sometimes longer just to be on the safe side. FWIW, that's with baked Spies Hecker paint. You can actually smell the outgassing if the conditions are right.

Try the #5. It's so user-friendly that I don't mind having to reapply it after every wash.

Pete-FWA
Nov 1st, 2005, 03:56 PM
Dave,

Welcome! As an easy answer, when it IS time to wax/seal, any of the ones Meguiar's offers are excellent products.

Search the forums for #20 and #21 sealants as well as #26, Gold Class, and NXT for waxes. Each has their nuances for application and end results.

This forum has everyone from beginners to seasoned professionals, along with a wealth of information. People can offer tips about how to do virtually anything in appearance care. I

LiquidBlack
Nov 1st, 2005, 04:01 PM
Use PURE POLISHES like #7 Show Car Glaze to keep your car's appearance looking great until you can wax it.

Superior Shine
Nov 1st, 2005, 04:42 PM
I was brought up in the auto repair/body shop industry and I was taught to allow a new paint job to cure for 30-60 days before applying an wax or sealant.


Six months ago we applied Meguiars #21 sealant completely to a black 745IL. While we were finishing up the owner comes out and asks me if he needs to do anything different to his freshly painted bumper. I asked how fresh and he said it was painted yesterday.

We sealed a day old paint job and have reasealed it every month since for about 5-6 months now. The bumper looks beautiful and I can see any problem with it-go figure!

Mike Phillips
Nov 1st, 2005, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by caldwdp
Had a total repaint of my car done about three weeks ago. The shop said not to wax until 4-6 weeks. What would be a good product to use the first time. I am going to AZ in DEC so I want to have something on the car then. The paint was a polyurethane with sealer. Could I use your sealer product thanks.
Dave


Hi Dave,

Welcome to Meguiar's Online! :wavey

Below are a couple of things I've written on the subject... From the FAQ, Question 10 under Paint Care here,


http://meguiars.com/faq/

A new car with a factory paint job can be waxed the moment it is rolled out of the manufacturing plant. Cars that have factory paint jobs are cured at much higher temperatures, sometimes as high as 300 degrees in special baking ovens.

At a factory level, the car goes through the painting and baking process without any of the rubber, plastic, and cloth components installed. This is why they can expose the car and it's fresh paint to such high temperatures. These high temperatures and special paints used at the factory level insures the paint is fully cured by the time the car is completely assembled.

After-market paint finishes however, are cured at a much lower temperature to ensure the method of baking or heating the paint doesn't melt non-metal components such as wiring and vinyl. For this reason, it's best to follow the specific paint manufactures recommendations for care and maintenance of fresh paint.

Most paint manufactures that supply paint to the refinish industry recommend that you allow anywhere from 30 to 90 days curing time after the paint is applied before you apply the first application of wax.

To maintain your cars fresh paint during the recommended curing time you can safely use any of the below Meguiar's pure polishes, which are not only safe for fresh paint but help to enhance the curing process while making your paint look it's absolute best.

M-03 Machine Glaze
M-05 New Car Glaze
M-07 Show Car Glaze
M-81 Hand Polish
A-21 Deep Crystal Polish

Another product you can use to maintain fresh paint throughout the curing process and even afterwards is Meguiar's M-80 Speed Glaze. Speed Glaze is a cleaner/polish that also contains a unique paintable polymer that will extend the durability of the product while offering protection to the finish closer to that of a real wax or paint protectant.

Speed Glaze contains a high level of pure polishing oils and only a small amount of very fine diminishing abrasives for cleaning/removing surface imperfections, blemishes, and surface stain. The amount of diminishing abrasives contained in this product are not enough to scratch the surface when applied by hand or machine. They will instead ensure that the surface is completely clean, enabling the rich polishing oils to penetrate into the surface creating deep, dark, wet-looking gloss while the paintable polymers provide a small but important level of protection to preserve your finish from attack and deterioration while it cures.

Mike Phillips
Nov 1st, 2005, 04:50 PM
Paint Needs To Breathe

Words mean things, just ask any Lawyer. Floating around on the Internet, and discussed for decades among car enthusiasts is the myth that paint needs to breathe.

Or is it a myth?

It depends on how literal you read into the words. If you apply the common definition used for the word breath, then "No", paint does not need to breathe. If however you take a moment to understand the idea that is being expressed with this word, then I think you'll understand why the word breathe is used when someone says, or posts to the Internet that "Paint needs to breathe".

The below is just my guestimation as to the story behind the theory or myth that paint needs to breathe. I may be wrong, but my years of working with both painters, detailers and serious car enthusiasts as well as teaching detailing classes makes me think that if I'm not dead on, I'm at least in the ball park. With that said, here my explanation of how the saying, "Paint needs to breathe" originated.

For the last 50 or so years, when a person would have their car painted, upon retrieving it from the painter, the painter would typically recommend that the owner wait for a period of time before applying a coat of wax or some type of paint sealant that seals the paint. The normal period of time that most painters recommend is anywhere from 30 to 60 days and sometimes longer, depending upon the painter. The reason for this waiting period is to allow the different solvents and other additives enough time to fully evaporate out of and off of the surface.

Wax and/or paint sealants, whether natural or synthetic, or a blend of both of these ingredients, seals the paint by coating over the surface and filling into any microscopic surface imperfections creating a barrier coating over the surface. This blocks, or inhibits these solvents from escaping through evaporation, or outgassing. Solvents also called thinners and reducers are used to thin the paint down so that it can be atomized into a spray when applied with a paint gun using compressed air.

When a customer arrives at a body shop or a dealership to pick up their car with its freshly applied paint, most painters will tell the customer to wait a certain number of days before applying wax, or paint sealant over their new paint job. If the customer agrees, then that's probably as far as the discussion goes.

If the customer asks further questions as to why they must wait before applying a protective coating to their investment, then it is my belief that most painters would do their best to explain to the customer, in easy to understand terminology, so that the customer will understand and comply with his request. This is where I think the saying, paint needs to breathe, originated.

I don't think most painters would try to explain that the solvents need to outgas in order for the paint to fully dry and harden, instead, I think they would use a more simple approach and merely tell the customer that their new paint needs to breathe.

The above fictional analogy is probably as accurate as any assumption as to how the theory that paint needs to breath was started. (I'm open to other theories however.)

People that understand the painting process understand that paint doesn't literally need to breathe; they do understand that fresh paint needs to outgas. This means that for a period of time, the solvents and other carrying agents, which are used to dilute paint to a thin viscosity so that it can be sprayed out of a pressurized air sprayer, need to work their way out of the paint through the evaporation process, also referred to as outgassing.

Read the below two scenarios and then decide for yourself, which scenario sounds more plausible.

In an effort to explain to their customers why paint manufactures recommend waiting for at least 30 days to pass before applying a coating of wax or a paint sealant, the painter can,
1. Try to explain the outgassing process over and over again throughout their career.
2. Use a simple analogy that the average person can understand without challenging the painter's judgment or expertise.
My personal guess is the second option.

If the simple analogy works, it will accomplish the painter's goal and allow the painter to get back to work, not spend his time explaining the painting process to each customer as they pick up their car. The goal of course is to prevent the customer from sealing the paint with some type of wax or paint sealant until the paint has completely dried and the out-gassing process is completely over.


* Paint does not need to breathe in the literal sense that you and I need to breathe as living human beings.
* Paint does need to breathe in the sense that fresh paint needs to outgas.
Of course, in the last 50 years or so since World War II ended and the car crazy culture really revved up in America, (no pun intended), the result has been explosive growth in the collision repair and custom painting industries. It should be no surprise that the idea that paint needs to breathe has finally reached enough of a critical mass as to be the topic of discussion on numerous discussion forums as well as anywhere a couple of car enthusiasts gather to talk shop.

Depending on how literal you want to read into it, when someone states "Paint needs to breathe", what they probably mean is that fresh paint needs to outgas, they probably just don't know, or understand the term outgas, and/or they are confused like many people who have gone before them and are operating under the wrong idea innocently.

A different, but related version of the above would be someone that applies the same idea that paint needs to breathe to the paint on a brand new car which is also false unless the new car has been painted within the last 30 to 90 days. Sometimes during shipping from the assembly plant to the dealership show room floor, new vehicles are damaged and need repair including repainting. If all the paint on the car is the factory original paint, then it was baked on at the factory as it traveled down the assembly line and was completely cured before it left the assembly plant and it is perfectly safe to apply a coating of wax or a paint sealant of some type. If the car has been repainted due to damage during transit, then the areas with fresh paint should not be sealed with wax until the recommended waiting period has passed.

Well, this is my stab at the "Paint needs to breathe theory".

Comments? Click here to post them to this article (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3705)

Mike

Accumulator
Nov 2nd, 2005, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by Superior Shine
I was brought up in the auto repair/body shop industry and I was taught to allow a new paint job to cure for 30-60 days before applying an wax or sealant...[but on the other hand]...
We sealed a day old paint job and have reasealed it every month since for about 5-6 months now. The bumper looks beautiful and I can see any problem with it-go figure!

IMO we sorta overstate the need to allow the outgassing to happen unimpeded. It's not like the paint is gonna cloud up or peel off or anything like that.

Some time when you have to polish the BMW, see if you can spot a difference between the hardness of the repainted bumper cover and the rest of the car. From what I hear (only had one Bimmer myself) the paint on those is sorta soft anyhow, so there might not be any huge difference in this case.

I'd still stick with the old approach that you and I grew up with, figuring better safe than sorry. When I had the last paintwork done on the S8 it was the underside of the hood. With engine heat etc. you could smell the outgassing for over two months. I ended up waiting a very long time before I finally sealed it. I even teased the painter about whether he'd mixed the paint right because it seemed to be taking so long to finish curing.

ktlimq
Aug 11th, 2006, 04:24 AM
Shouldn't the FAQ Question 10 under Paint Care be updated? It includes A-21 Deep Crystal Polish, but it is not to be used during the curing process according to recent email reply from Meguiars.

Accumulator
Aug 11th, 2006, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by ktlimq
Shouldn't the FAQ Question 10 under Paint Care be updated? It includes A-21 Deep Crystal Polish, but it is not to be used during the curing process according to recent email reply from Meguiars.

I'd like to know about this as well, as I frequently recommend DC#2 on fresh repaints. Wonder why it wouldn't be OK :confused:

Mike Phillips
Aug 11th, 2006, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by ktlimq
Shouldn't the FAQ Question 10 under Paint Care be updated? It includes A-21 Deep Crystal Polish, but it is not to be used during the curing process according to recent email reply from Meguiars.


I'll check into this, however when the current FAQ was re-written and updated, we checked and double checked for accuracy and it was also read my multple sets of eyes.

Let me do some checking...

Mike Phillips
Aug 11th, 2006, 10:21 AM
I spoke with Mike Pennington and confirmed that Deep Crystal Polish is body shop safe, this means it is safe for use on fresh paint.

ktlimq
Aug 11th, 2006, 11:07 AM
Thanks for checking it.
The Meguiar's customer care specialist might have done a mistake.

By the way, the term body shop safe confuses me a little.
According to Meguiars FAQ, it is related to suface adhesion of paint to the surface.

However, the #10 of Paint Care at FAQ is related to curing process of paint during 1~3 months after painting. No car is at body shop for 3 months for curing.

Mike Phillips
Aug 11th, 2006, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by ktlimq
Thanks for checking it.
The Meguiar's customer care specialist might have done a mistake.
We'll check into it, we're sure it's a mistake.



By the way, the term body shop safe confuses me a little. According to Meguiar's FAQ, it is related to surface adhesion of paint to the surface.

However, the #10 of Paint Care at FAQ is related to curing process of paint during 1~3 months after painting. No car is at body shop for 3 months for curing.

Let me see if I can clear this up for you, no pun intended.

A product that is body shop safe means that there are no ingredients in the formula that would cause any surface adhesion issues if the product were taken into and used in a fresh paint environment like a body shop. Ingredients that can cause problems, primarily what are called fish eyes, are things that cause surface tension, this could be different types of waxes, silicones, polymers, grease, oil, etc.

For the same reason these products are safe to take into a fresh paint environment, they are also safe to apply to fresh paint. The reason why is because ingredients that cause surface adhesion problems tend to be ingredients that offer long lasting protection[/i][/b], that is products/ingredients that coat over, seal the surface and provide a barrier layer of protection. Because most paint manufactures and painters don't recommend sealing fresh paint for 30/60/90 days, you don't want to apply a wax or paint protectant to the paint but you can apply products that don't contain paint protection ingredients, such as body shop safe products. In this case we're talking about a pure polish.

ktlimq
Aug 11th, 2006, 03:59 PM
Thanks, that helps me. But I want more clarification.

I heard that quick detail sprays do not offer protection like waxes or quick waxes, but consumer line quick detailers are not body shop safe.

So should I avoid using Meguiars Quick Detailer on the repainted surface?

My rear quater panel (collision damage) and rear door (to match color somoothly) were repainted at body shop recently. For those arears, I once used M09 to remove some stain that was not removed with car wash. I used Meguiars Quick Detailer only for other parts of the car, but some overspray might have gone to the repainted area.

Are Gold Class Bug & Tar Remover, Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner, etc. safe during curing period?

onnfire
Aug 11th, 2006, 04:05 PM
Body shop safe implies that it will not affect the adhesion of the paint or in some other way mar it. Wax is not body shop safe, but you should still use it to protect your paint after it has "outgassed". There should just be no wax products in a body shop because if wax got on something, the paint would not look very good.

Mike Phillips
Aug 11th, 2006, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by ktlimq

So should I avoid using Meguiar's Quick Detailer on the repainted surface?
Chances are pretty slim to none that using a consumer quick detailer will cause any harm if used on a car that has been recently painted. It should be the least of your worries.



Originally posted by ktlimq
Are Gold Class Bug & Tar Remover, Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner, etc. safe during curing period?

Off hand I don't know if these two items are what we classify as Body Shop Safe, I'm pretty sure the paint cleaner is, I don't know about the Bug & Tar Remover.

For now stick with car washing to remove bugs and if you want a body shop safe quick detailer then pick up a bottle of M34 Final Inspection from a PBE store

Accumulator
Aug 12th, 2006, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips
I spoke with Mike Pennington and confirmed that Deep Crystal Polish is ..safe for use on fresh paint.

Thanks for checking on that Mike!