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detailbarn
Aug 23rd, 2005, 04:09 PM
For those who have a subscription to Professional Carwashing & Detailing, what is your opinion on the article in the September issue titled "Is it time for certification?" Written by Bud Abraham.

buda
Aug 24th, 2005, 05:09 AM
What is your opinion of the article and the subject of certification?

Bud Abraham

Mike Phillips
Aug 24th, 2005, 05:11 AM
I haven't read it, could you post a synopsis?

The detailing industry has a lot of turn-over at the entry level aspect as well as brick and mortar shops and mobile set-ups that are here one day and gone the next.

The problem with certification is always going to be that there is no control over the attitude of the detailer and attitude is an important factor. A person might have the skill, but if one day they have a poor attitude towards their work, towards the employer, or even the car they're working on, the quality will suffer regardless of whether or not they are certified.

Attitude can be affected by all kinds of things, for example money. If you're a young guy working for a shop and you don't feel the owner/manager is paying you enough, you might be certified, but that will not make you care about your work.

Some aspects of detailing a car are pretty straightforward such as cleaning and dressing a tire; however when it comes to polishing the paint, we're talking about a thin, delicate coating that is easily dulled-down and instilled with scratches if not worked on using the proper products, tools and procedures.

Another factor is product choice, some products are better than others and the end-results will clearly show this, (no pun intended). What happens when a person is certified but switches to inferior products, or the shop he's working in switches to inferior products? Some detailers have no control over the products and tools they use.

Here's an example...

Each one, teach one... Ferrari Fiorano 355 F1 Spider (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2877)

The young man in the above thread works for a detailing company, he uses the products they supply for him. His attitude was great, his desire to do the best work possible was stellar, but the products and tools he was supplied with were archaic to say the least and the before shots of the Ferrari show this.

The topic and problem of certification needs to be discussed in this industry, but a solution may be difficult to agree upon.

buda
Aug 24th, 2005, 05:34 AM
Cannot agree with your logic on this point because if what you say is true then why have certified mechanics; bodyshop techs; licenced doctors or dentists?

Of course attitude and overall competency is an issue, but what certification does is tell the customer that this person has passed a certain accepted level of competency for this trade.

For example, how do we judge a doctor or dentist's competency? By the doctor's bedside manner and personality and by the dentist's chairside manner and if the filling stays in your mouth.

See the point? You need to have certification in all areas to at least establish some type of competency, in my humble opinion.

It is only the mediorce detailers that fear certification.

Bud Abraham

Mike Phillips
Aug 24th, 2005, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by buda
Cannot agree with your logic on this point because if what you say is true then why have certified mechanics; bodyshop techs; licenced doctors or dentists?

Well as I said Bud, some things are pretty straight forward, for example bolting an intake manifold onto a small block Chevy engine.

Polishing paint is an art form and requires the human elements of care and passion, if this were not true, we wouldn't see all the swirled-out and botched buff jobs that we constantly see.

stealth
Aug 24th, 2005, 08:03 AM
Certification is a double edged sword. The debate could go on ad infinitum. Usually the certifying authority is a great $$$$$ maker & it doesn't really matter in the long term scenario. Results does.

Mike Phillips
Aug 24th, 2005, 08:23 AM
As I said, I haven't read his article but I am having a copy of the magazine sent to myself.

Mike Pennington shared this with me today, I-CAR (http://www.i-car.com/) already offers ASE Certification in detailing. Meguiar's helped to create the criteria for the class and one of our Area Sales Reps is an I-CAR instructor.

Detailing - REF04 (http://209.103.220.182/class_schedules/search/FMPro?-db=schedule_lineitems.fp5&-format=line_items_detail.htm&-lay=line_items&Record%20ID=LI-0037368&-find)

mirrorfinishman
Aug 25th, 2005, 01:43 AM
Here's a copy of Mr. Abraham's article, 'Is it time for certification?' from the September 2005 edition of Professional Carwashing & Detailing magazine.

http://www.carwash.com/article.asp?IndexID=6635573

Superior Shine
Aug 25th, 2005, 03:03 AM
It is only the mediorce detailers that fear certification.

No wonder I am shaking in my boots!

Mike Phillips
Aug 25th, 2005, 03:08 AM
Thanks Frank for posting the link, I searched for the article on Carwash.com but was unable to locate it within a few minutes and became busy with other tasks.

Mr. Abraham's article is very good. He does a great job of making the case for different levels of certification and at the end of the article he even solicits anyone with ideas on how to do this to contact him. I think this was probably the best part of the article, that is he;

* States the problems
* Proposes some solutions
* Admits that he doesn't have all the answers
* Asks that we the readers, the people that are in the industry, to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
My first suggestion would be that any certification process needs to be designed in such a way as to include the world. While Bud lives in Oregon and I live in California one thing that working as an Admin on a forum like Meguiar's Online has really stressed to me is that because of the Internet and forums like ours, just as no man is an island, no country is an island.

If possible, and model for certification should be constructed in such a way that detailers around the world could participate in it.

Just an idea...

Dragpakmach
Aug 25th, 2005, 08:38 AM
Just because you maybe certified doesnt mean your good at what you do.It just means you can pass a test.Example ASE certication for automotive techs,I have some only because my boss thought it would look good hanging in the waiting room.But youd be suprised how many techs have all the ASE certs. and run around the shop with meat cleavers in their hands.All lines of work have the example I gave above.

Beercan31
Aug 25th, 2005, 01:37 PM
Dragpakmach
touche,
Very well put, you took the words right out of my mouth.

I have a great desire to bring the level of my detailing skills to the next and beyond. A piece of paper does not prove that I am good at my trade......repeat customers do.

buda
Aug 25th, 2005, 03:10 PM
Always amazes me how many detailers get defensive when the subject of certification comes up.

Of course the certification proves something. It proves that you have some basic knowledge of detailing because you went through some type of training program. That is all any certification program does.

There are good certified mechanics and average ones and others who are at the bottom of the scale, but they are still better than one who has had no training in my mind.

To say a customer is a good judge of one's compentency as a detailer is faulty logic. They do not know what a good or bad detail job is. They only see what you did.

But as we all know, a detailer can do excellent coverup work and make the car look great.

They can swirl the hell out of the paint and cover the swirls up with wax and make the car look great.

They can one step the car with a cheap one step product and make the car look great, but in reality the customer should have had and did pay for a 3 step paint finish process.

We have developed a detail knowledge test that I would guarantee 95% of the detailers on this forum could not pass.

Why?

Because few, if any detailers have had any formal knowledge training.

I am not naive, while I speak of certification I know that as long as the detail industry is at the level it is today nothing will change.

Regards
Bud Abraham

detailbarn
Aug 25th, 2005, 03:21 PM
Bud two questions for you what do you think of I-cars program? Second what would be your outline of a proper certification program. Who do you think should run such a program and how would it operate? Thanks for your insite and thanks for everyone else who posted as well.

Beercan31
Aug 25th, 2005, 03:25 PM
when one sets his or her goal to excellence and piece of paper proves nothing.


remember the ole' saying he has more degrees that a rectal thermometer and not enough smarts to wipe his own ___ you fill in the blank.

Mike Phillips
Aug 25th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by buda
We have developed a detail knowledge test that I would guarantee 95% of the detailers on this forum could not pass.

Why?

Because few, if any detailers have had any formal knowledge training.


You know buda, we don't need this kind of in-your-face-talk on our forum and we certainly don't want it.

You might be right about the percentage of people that could not pass this test and you might be wrong, either way you are not going to win any friends by communicating like this. It will not be tolerated.

Lt1Corvette
Aug 25th, 2005, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by buda

We have developed a detail knowledge test that I would guarantee 95% of the detailers on this forum could not pass.

Why?

Because few, if any detailers have had any formal knowledge training.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Do you have an example or online version of one of these tests? I am curious how I would do on your test.

buda
Aug 25th, 2005, 05:54 PM
From a technical point of view the I CAR test is good. A great deal of time and effort went into the program a few years back.

They are a well respected independent group in the collision repair industry and techs really want to have their certification certificates.

Mike, I am sorry for my "in your face" commentary, but I feel that detailers that "bad-mouth" certification are also doing a bit of "in your face too."

In deference to your forum rules, I will be more sensitive to my "in your face" comments.

No intent to insult you or anyone on the forum, but trying to make a point that we need to know what we don't know and I have administered this test to numerous "experienced" detailers who could not pass it.

Does that mean a person who does not know the rules of basketball can't play it like an all star? Or a person who has never read the driver's license book or owner's manual cannot drive a car?

Of course not, but we would feel much better as a coach or a passenger in the car if the person did have some knowledge.

That is my point.

Bud Abraham

detailbarn
Aug 26th, 2005, 01:15 AM
Bud
Looks like you may have missed my question , so here it is again. Thanks

"Bud two questions for you what do you think of I-cars program? Second what would be your outline of a proper certification program. Who do you think should run such a program and how would it operate? Thanks for your insite and thanks for everyone else who posted as well."

buda
Aug 26th, 2005, 03:04 AM
Sorry that I missed the point of your question:

1. Since I have only briefly read thru the program outline I cannot comment definitively on the program. However, knowing the reputation of I-CAR I would have to say, given that I must answer a YES or No question it is a good one, and worth the time and effort to take the course.

2. Who should conduct a certification program? Obviously, an independent group like I-CAR that is not trying to sell anything. The training programs offered by chemical companies, unfortunately are jaudiced toward selling their products, as one would expect.

3. Outline for the course?

a. Knowledge on paints, chemical; leathers, vinyls; carpets
engines, wheels; rubbers, plastics and any other item
on a vehicle the detailer would be working on. It is my
contention you need to understand the nature of the
material you are working on so you can properly clean it
without damage.

b. Cleaning/detailing tools and technology. A detailer needs
to know about everything that is out there that they can
use to clean/detail a vehicle.

c. Procedures, the philosophy of detailing a vehicle from
start to finish.

That covers the technical side of detailing, but I believe, that you should also be given a course in Developing and Operating a Successful Detailing Business.

In order words, just because you can technically detail a car does not mean you can operate a business that does detailing. You need to know and understand the important things it takes to run a business.

Hope that answers your questions.

Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

Rollman
Aug 26th, 2005, 11:25 AM
I think its a good article with plenty of merit . I don't see anything wrong with certification . This industry is full of hack detailer's that do nothing for the good of the industry as a whole . Customer's pay for subpar work and the industry Pays when these same customer's go away unhappy .

Cerification isn't the so called " magic pill " to fix the problems wrong with this industry but it is a good first step down a long road .

I believe anyone not committed to doing the very best in what ever they do shouldn't fear learning . After all that's really what this is all about . Doing everything in your powers to constantly learn how to improve .

Mike Phillips
Aug 26th, 2005, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Rollman
I think its a good article with plenty of merit . I don't see anything wrong with certification . This industry is full of hack detailer's that do nothing for the good of the industry as a whole . Customer's pay for subpar work and the industry Pays when these same customer's go away unhappy .

Cerification isn't the so called " magic pill " to fix the problems wrong with this industry but it is a good first step down a long road .

I believe anyone not committed to doing the very best in what ever they do shouldn't fear learning . After all that's really what this is all about . Doing everything in your powers to constantly learn how to improve .

:iagree: Well said.

mirrorfinishman
Aug 26th, 2005, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by detailbarn
For those who have a subscription to Professional Carwashing & Detailing, what is your opinion on the article in the September issue titled "Is it time for certification?" Written by Bud Abraham.

Once again, Mr. Abraham has put together a very well written article. This time it's about a subject that is long overdue. Just read the title; 'Is it time for certification?' He's basically asking us to think about the need and the benefits of certification. This is what a good leader does. They lead people in order to put change into motion.

In my opinion, Mr. Abraham is simply trying to get detailers and detailing business owners motivated to take action. After all, things won't change until people change.

Personally, I would give Mr. Abraham the credit he is due for being at the forefront of our industry for the past three decades.

Rollman
Aug 26th, 2005, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by mirrorfinishman


In my opinion, Mr. Abraham is simply trying to get detailers and detailing business owners motivated to take action. After all, things won't change until people change.



I agree 100% things won't change until people change .

There are some detailer's taking step's to insure the long-term survival of the business, one group I believe doing so is the PDTA .

Dragpakmach
Aug 26th, 2005, 03:10 PM
I say if theres a test make it 2 part one being written and the other hands on if certification is a big deal to the customer because ultimatley thats the person thats gonna care not the owners counting their revenue in the back room.

Phil's Automotive
Sep 2nd, 2005, 10:12 AM
I just registered for the I-CAR Detailing class. I will let everyone know what i think of it at the end of this month.

Mike Phillips
Sep 2nd, 2005, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Phil's Automotive
I just registered for the I-CAR Detailing class. I will let everyone know what i think of it at the end of this month.

Please do Phil and Thank You! :bigups

Superior Shine
Sep 2nd, 2005, 04:52 PM
I can't find the I car auto detailing class anywhere in Ca, Nv, AZ or Fl !!!

Mike Phillips
Sep 2nd, 2005, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Superior Shine
I can't find the I car auto detailing class anywhere in Ca, Nv, AZ or Fl !!!

I did some searching in the I-CAR website and found the Detailing Course in SoCal but it's only offered in Spanish.

SpoiledMan
Sep 2nd, 2005, 05:21 PM
Doesn't Rightlook offer training?

Shiny Lil Detlr
Nov 17th, 2005, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Well as I said Bud, some things are pretty straight forward, for example bolting an intake manifold onto a small block Chevy engine.

Polishing paint is an art form and requires the human elements of care and passion, if this were not true, we wouldn't see all the swirled-out and botched buff jobs that we constantly see.

OK, Mike. I can buy part of what you're saying here, but let's go back to your other comment:


Another factor is product choice, some products are better than others and the end-results will clearly show this, (no pun intended). What happens when a person is certified but switches to inferior products, or the shop he's working in switches to inferior products? Some detailers have no control over the products and tools they use.

Basically if I take what you're saying correctly, I could state that an ASE certified brake technician doesn't mean they know what they're doing.

Sure, it's straight forward to install pads and rotors, but what if the tech isn't using baer, brembo, SSBC, etc. components? Suddenly his certification is just as worthless as a certified detailer, because he's using inferior products.

Let's think objectively about what certification, in ANY industry, is really about. It merely says that a detailer is trained to be competent with the tools and techniques to use. Whether or not the products he works with are the best or not, he is not INTENTIONALLY doing something wrong.

That's no different than the other background I have in computers. I'm certified in doing certain jobs, but I'm not certified in only one specific brand.

MrWolf710
Nov 17th, 2005, 10:46 AM
Something else to remember is that a certification is only as good as it's advertising. If no one knows about a cert then it doesn't matter if you have it. If the average consumer has never heard of ICars cert then it won't mean anything to them that you have it. I could easily make a business card that's says I'm Meguiar's certified, but it doesn't mean anything becuase I made it up (and it my case it would really mean absolutely nothing :)
Unless there was a huge marketing push to go along with the cert then it would be the same - just random letters on a business card.

SeabreezeDetailing
Nov 17th, 2005, 11:31 AM
I have to agree with MrWolf710,

I think certification would be great, but I dont think most customers would really care about it. When I explain my training to a potential client, or that I am a member of the PDTA, it goes in one ear and out the other. When I break out my photo albumn, and explain the procedures Im going to do with their vehicle, their all ears. The only customers Ive ever had ask me about any formal training were classic car owners and the occasional Italian car owners.

I do see this being positive in that the people who actually go after this certification genuinely care about their business, and care enough about their clients to be sure they are up with the industries standards. Wether the customers care to know or not, knowing that your detailing business is recongnized as being certified should be worth it.

I personally have always seen detailing as more of an art than a technical skill (braces for flaming!)

Mike Phillips
Nov 17th, 2005, 12:00 PM
This is confusing, but try to follow me... since I'm quoting you quoting me, I've made my words blue.


Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Well as I said Bud, some things are pretty straight forward, for example bolting an intake manifold onto a small block Chevy engine.

Polishing paint is an art form and requires the human elements of care and passion, if this were not true, we wouldn't see all the swirled-out and botched buff jobs that we constantly see.

Originally posted by Shiny Lil Detlr
OK, Mike. I can buy part of what you're saying here, but let's go back to your other comment:
and...

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Another factor is product choice, some products are better than others and the end-results will clearly show this, (no pun intended). What happens when a person is certified but switches to inferior products, or the shop he's working in switches to inferior products? Some detailers have no control over the products and tools they use.

Originally posted by Shiny Lil Detlr
Basically if I take what you're saying correctly, I could state that an ASE certified brake technician doesn't mean they know what they're doing.

Sure, it's straight forward to install pads and rotors, but what if the tech isn't using baer, brembo, SSBC, etc. components? Suddenly his certification is just as worthless as a certified detailer, because he's using inferior products.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
End of quoted material.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I see this all the time, a young detailer, with a heart of gold, is given a rotary buffer with a wool pad and a one-step cleaner/wax.

His results will be buffer swirls, no matter how good he is, no matter how good his intentions are or no matter how many certifications he has.

Case in point... the young man detailing and maintaining the Ferrari in the below thread works for a detailing company. They supplied him with his products and tools and trained him how to detail cars, if you look at the before pictures, the finish is dull, hazy and filled with swirls.

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2877


This is what I mean when I say that certification won't make up for inferior products. Wool pads and one-step cleaner/products are not inferior products.

Wool pads are great for removing serious defects or sanding marks, but not for the finishing work. Sometimes a person doesn't have any say over the products they use, or the process they follow.

How many times have you seen someone post the question on how to remove swirls instilled in the brand new car they just bought from the big, mighty "New Car Dealership"

Why does a brand new car have to come from from the dealership with swirls in the finish?

The answer is it doesn't have to, but it does because the management at many dealerships either don't care, are not educated, or don't want to spend the money on quality products and training for their staff and more than likely all of the above.


Just to note, I've been in almost nothing but e-mails since 6:00am this morning, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this topic. This is whey I have this posted here,

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7270

You can feel free to discuss it among yourselves however, as for me I'm going to lunch... :D

Shiny Lil Detlr
Nov 17th, 2005, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips
This is what I mean when I say that certification won't make up for inferior products. Wool pads and one-step cleaner/products are not inferior products.

Wool pads are great for removing serious defects or sanding marks, but not for the finishing work. Sometimes a person doesn't have any say over the products they use, or the process they follow.

And this is why, (perhaps naiively) I guess I'd like to think that having proper training programs leading to certifications would lessen these types of incidents. Personally, if I were a certified detailer (well, actually, even as the non-certified, but well educated long-time detailing enthusiast/professional that I am) I would not submit to working for a shop that was giving me the conditions you describe. If I didn't have any say over what I was using, and I knew it to be wrong/producing inferior results, I would not be working for that particular shop.

As far as I'm concerned, in that aspect, the more certified detailers that started showing up out there, the more widely adopted a certification process would become. In turn, less and less "shady shod shops" would exist and/or last, as enough people within the business would know better. I see certification as a means to help improve quality across the board by weeding out the hacks. Granted, it'd be a slow process at first, but anything worth doing takes time and effort (as we all know from the countless hours of prep work and polishing we put into our and our customers' vehicles).


How many times have you seen someone post the question on how to remove swirls instilled in the brand new car they just bought from the big, mighty "New Car Dealership"

Why does a brand new car have to come from from the dealership with swirls in the finish?

The answer is it doesn't have to, but it does because the management at many dealerships either don't care, are not educated, or don't want to spend the money on quality products and training for their staff and more than likely all of the above.

Again, if a certification program were to become more of a mainstream thing, we would likely see this situation turn around. If the guys who are "managing" the detail shop at the dealer were trained and equipped with proper products and equipment, and trained well, that would pass on to the staff, which would increase output quality.

Now like I said, perhaps my viewpoint (as a "young detailer" myself, being only 20 and having been in the business/industry/hobby seriously for 5-6 years or so) is a bit naiive, but I doubt it's so off-base that it couldn't realistically happen.

Mike Phillips
Nov 17th, 2005, 01:00 PM
I agree with you in that if everyone were to be certified, i.e. educated, including shop managers, detailers, etc. then the hope that higher quality work would be performed would have a better chance of becoming a reality.


Knowing what I know today, even if I were to see a certification badge on a shirt sleeve, or a plaque on the wall, I would still want to see what a detailer was going to touch my car's finish with.

Pete-FWA
Nov 17th, 2005, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips
Knowing what I know today, even if I were to see a certification badge on a shirt sleeve, or a plaque on the wall, I would still want to see what a detailer was going to touch my car's finish with.

I agree with that 100%. Detailing is even more about technique and finesse and less about brute mechanical force than many other services. In my explanation to customers and firends, it is an artistic form of expression similar to paint work. It's about image and perspective. We're not replacing fenders or adding fluids, we're changing the image of that vehicle. It will not run or maneuver any differently. It will feel, look, and smell differently. The aesthetics are why detailers are in business. Look at how many people peddling used vehicles get them cleaned and do no mechanical work.

Think about how many ASE Certified Tech badges, certificates, and plaques you've seen in shops that have left you unsatisfied with the work by those same technicians.

Detail training is available and could be advantageous to an open minded student, but certification doesn't mean automatic success in the field.

detailbarn
Nov 17th, 2005, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Pete-FWA
Think about how many ASE Certified Tech badges, certificates, and plaques you've seen in shops that have left you unsatisfied with the work by those same technicians.



well said ....

Hannibal
Nov 17th, 2005, 05:40 PM
Im a capitalist :xyxthumbs I hate anything to do with ANY kind of government regulation/certification (local state federal etc) of trades. If you are no good at detailing, don't worry.....You wont have much work. There's a natural market balance, found everyday in our economy.

I love how it seems this idea of this certification is to "protect the customer" :LOLOL: :LOLOL: :LOLOL:

It's always about money. Dont think for one minute it isnt. This seems like an attempt to place distance between someone who may be starting out in the business from the guy who may have more time detailing, thereby placing himself in a leveraged financial situation, just because he is "certified".

The State of Texas in September 2004 adopted and passed legislation creating the Texas State Board of Electrical Examiners. I think it is great. I was grandfathered into the new board because of experience, training etc.
But I have to tell you that was primarily done by Liberal lobbyists in the Texas House to try to remove the little man from business. There are hundreds maybe thousands of electricians who worked in Rural areas for many decades, but because of the new law, are now unemployed because they dont meet the standards set forth by the State. You now have to have a permit to work on your OWN HOUSE!! And it has to be inspected by a State Licensed Inspector.
My Point: You will be putting the "little businesses" in an unfair advantage. And I also agree that certification dont mean squat in most cases. Its about personal ethics and integrity that determine how well you perform in your trade.

Maybe I should just stay in the detailing 101 threads :confused:

Shiny Lil Detlr
Nov 17th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Pete-FWA
Think about how many ASE Certified Tech badges, certificates, and plaques you've seen in shops that have left you unsatisfied with the work by those same technicians.

Detail training is available and could be advantageous to an open minded student, but certification doesn't mean automatic success in the field.

Well, no, and that's really not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that having a formal training process would reduce the chance that hacks would still be in business, just like "non-ASE" techs have a harder time finding work in most shops. That's not to say that some of the certified folks aren't any good, or to say that all non-certified folks are bad. It just says that if you're going to one of the MAJOR shops, they'll be running a tighter ship than most.

And, admittedly, I don't care WHERE I take my vehicle for service, I am the type that if they won't let me stand in the shop watching them work, they aren't touching my vehicles. I've been in shops standing closer to the action than probably was safe, but I didn't, and don't care about that. I'm just that picky.

Let's face it though, most folks are NOT going to be so picky.

Shiny Lil Detlr
Nov 17th, 2005, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Hannibal
Im a capitalist :xyxthumbs I hate anything to do with ANY kind of government regulation/certification (local state federal etc) of trades. If you are no good at detailing, don't worry.....You wont have much work. There's a natural market balance, found everyday in our economy.

I love how it seems this idea of this certification is to "protect the customer" :LOLOL: :LOLOL: :LOLOL: My Point: You will be putting the "little businesses" in an unfair advantage. And I also agree that certification dont mean squat in most cases. Its about personal ethics and integrity that determine how well you perform in your trade.

We aren't talking about government regulation/certification. We're talking about an industry or trade organization independently operating for the good of the industry. The protection is for the industry, not the customer. "Hacks" generally won't be going out and getting certified, unless the certification process/testing is way too lenient. Therefore, the rest of the industry won't suffer as badly from one hack giving the whole market of detailers a bad name.

I've actually seen this happen, where a person goes to a bad detail shop, and afterwards is soured about EVER having a vehicle detailed again since it is, to them, a waste of money. The connection that maybe it was just one particular shop/detailer doesn't even enter their minds.

Granted, though, there still is an ethical debate over integrity to be considered.... but the certification can't hurt.


Maybe I should just stay in the detailing 101 threads :confused:

LOL no, that's ok.... you make some valid arguments; it just seems to me from a business perspective, that certifications are more of a positive influence than a negative one. And that goes both for automotive, and the industry I've experienced first hand in computers/IT.

inthedetails
Nov 18th, 2005, 02:12 AM
If it is Industry based and the same everywhere, i.e. there are not 2 different group with in the industry offering the "same" type of certification, then I don't see it doing much harm. It can only force those currently detailing to get better, and also protect the industry for when the new guys come in. There will always be those that don't get certified, and they will still have a customer base. As was stated before, many people will not care - certified or not.

I work as a Firefighter/EMT. The Massachusetts Department of Emergency Medical Services oversees my Certification and Re-certification. And althought the "Standard" is the same, I cannot practice in any other State, because Massachusetts does not recognize reciprocity to other States. The same goes for my Firefighter 2 and Instructor Certifications, even though they are to a National Standard as well. This is my concern about multiple certifying agencies.

I understand the comparisons, but it is not the same as your mechanic being certified. If you paint is screwed up, your car will still run and stop. Wait, wait.....I am not saying it is acceptable, just that there are whole bunch of non-caring car owners that will be ok. (You've seen 'em - the ones that think dressed tires make a clean car)

My one concern is about Mike's point about buffing. As one learning this art form, how do you test for it? And when it comes to paint, it is the litmus test.....bad buffing = bad detailing.
It is the first thing you see.

Dave

Shiny Lil Detlr
Nov 18th, 2005, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by inthedetails
My one concern is about Mike's point about buffing. As one learning this art form, how do you test for it?

A certified exam proctor would have to watch you use a DA and Rotary buffer on a scrap hood to be sure you aren't using bad technique (e.g. leaving buffer trails, etc.)

Beercan31
Nov 19th, 2005, 09:57 AM
WOW. Can't belive this thread is still going! Must be one of those Hot Topics. and there are some good valid points being brought up.

My take on detailing is that "We" are the minority, the average person really don't give a Hoot how the car looks, there lives are full enough with out adding more to think about in it. This certification will only prove to "US" that you can do the job right the first time.(Thinking outside the box)

Regardless if you are pro or con about having a certification to prove you can do the job or not in not going to change the industry at all, you will always be bidding against the fly by night detailer. That my friends is Free Enterprise Plain and simple. you will never stop consumer Joe from going down to the local store buying a can of wax putting it on some ones car for a dime.

I still can not see the marketing advantages of this, when most of society see this as a hobby or a small business (please don't take this as an insult, i know I did when I first had it said to me)

As for using the ASE and EMT as an example for getting a certification in the field of detailing, is more like comparing apples and oranges, ASE and EMT's are both skills that have a eminent health and welfare and or life and death challenges attached to them by there nature, Detailing does not. I really don't think that customer "A" goes to garage "B" because they are ASE certified mechanics, I never heard nor seen this in the real world. or just before someone has been involved in an accident they think "Gee hope my crew has there EMT stats. We all choose by convenience, Pricing, location or Warrantees.

Originally posted by Shiny Lil Detlr
A certified exam proctor would have to watch you use a DA and Rotary buffer on a scrap hood to be sure you aren't using bad technique (e.g. leaving buffer trails, etc.)
Sure hope this guy is a volunteer, if not Who is going to pay his salary? Me?, You? Meg's? (that would be conflict of interest)

inthedetails
Nov 19th, 2005, 02:09 PM
I only used the EMT comparison to talk about a one standard system.........then again, the people in my Town may be more concerned about their cars than their EMTs....

:wall: :wall: :wall:

Scottwax
Nov 20th, 2005, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Shiny Lil Detlr
A certified exam proctor would have to watch you use a DA and Rotary buffer on a scrap hood to be sure you aren't using bad technique (e.g. leaving buffer trails, etc.)

I can already see the $$$$ flying out of my pocket with how much this certification would have to cost.....

I can drive perfectly when I have a driving examiner next to me but that doesn't mean after I get my license I won't speed.

buda
Nov 20th, 2005, 08:31 PM
To make a point about the need for some type of formal training in our good industry, if not certification. Let me ask how many of you detailers a couple of knowledge questions:

1. What are the different types of leather, by name, and what is the difference. And, why is this important for the detailer to know?

2. How many different types of paint systems are used today?
Explain:
a. Factory assembly line paint system
b. Factory after-assembly line paint system
c. Aftermarket paint system

3. What kind of alcohol will stain what kind of panel plastic?

4. What does an engine degrease have in it that makes it bad to use on carpets or leather for cleaning?

In my opinion this is the kind of knowledge a detailer needs to know whether thru training or certification.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Shiny Lil Detlr
Nov 20th, 2005, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by buda
To make a point about the need for some type of formal training in our good industry, if not certification. Let me ask how many of you detailers a couple of knowledge questions:

1. What are the different types of leather, by name, and what is the difference. And, why is this important for the detailer to know?

2. How many different types of paint systems are used today?
Explain:
a. Factory assembly line paint system
b. Factory after-assembly line paint system
c. Aftermarket paint system

3. What kind of alcohol will stain what kind of panel plastic?

4. What does an engine degrease have in it that makes it bad to use on carpets or leather for cleaning?

In my opinion this is the kind of knowledge a detailer needs to know whether thru training or certification.

Regards
Bud Abraham

1) I know of clearcoated (sealed pore), vat dyed, and spray dyed. Main importance being the method of cleaning used. You don't want to eat through the coating on coated leather, and if you scrub spray dyed leather the color could come off completely since the dye isn't all the way through the hyde.

2) Not sure, but I know of single stage, dual-stage BC/CC, tri-stage BC/CC, waterbased, and powdercoat. As far as assembly line paint goes, it is usually ELPO dip followed by spray treatment, base, clear, and cured at 700+ degrees.

3) Denatured alcohol stains HDPE #1

4) Engine degreaser can contain solvents or acid which could stain or disintegrate materials like carpet and leather.

OK now watch me eat crow :confused:

Detail Pro
Nov 26th, 2005, 08:55 PM
I-car has a certification class for detailing, which is a great idea. I think for people who are really serious about there job, would take the class. If you don't want to take the class, are you in the right business, or are you just not that good, and afraid to fail.

Scottwax
Nov 27th, 2005, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by Detail Pro
I-car has a certification class for detailing, which is a great idea. I think for people who are really serious about there job, would take the class. If you don't want to take the class, are you in the right business, or are you just not that good, and afraid to fail.

I think after nearly 12 years full time, I am pretty serious about this business and I am still not sold on what certification would ultimately accomplish.

theamcguy
Nov 27th, 2005, 01:45 PM
Lots of good replies here. This always comes up when someone proposes to certification for the auto repair industry. The prevailing attitude is it's fine the way it is lets leave it alone. Most successful professions regulate themselves without govt interference. The Medical and Legal profession both run their own certification procedures and this is after completing med or law school. No government here. Lots of people fail to pass the med boards or the Bar exam once they graduate. They either work as EMTs, paralegals or move on to something else. Your kid is sick two guys both have graduated med school one is certified the other isn't who does your kid see for medical attention? Extreme OK you need wiring work in your house. Better use a licensed electrician or kiss that inspection goodbye not to mention your insurance if the house burns down due to an electrical problem. Same with a plumber. Building contractors also need to be licensed. So why not the auto repair industry? Technicians, mechanics, trans rebuilders, detailers, towers, etc we all need to be certified and we need to take the lead to make it happen. It's not how much will it cost you but how much are you losing because the public views you at less than face value because you don not have proof of knowledge. if we do not take the lead and set up certification procedures, apprentice procedures, and education requirements, then we can not complain when we are underpaid for our work. You see the doctor for 20 min at 4pm after waiting 2 hours for your 2pm appointment he bills you $385. He is billing you for what he knows not what he does. On top of that the medicine he prescribes does not help so he has to do a retest and rediagnose (commonly called a comeback in the auto repair industry which usuall is done for free) and he charges another $385 plus no mention of the wasted $50 on medicine that did not help. You tell me the difference between an doctor and a mechanic? One gets paid big bucks for diagnosing and fixing people the other makes a living diagnosing and fixing cars. The difference is certification. Look at plumbers and electricians they do not have a flat rate book they charge by the hour pure and simple certification is the reason.

Pete-FWA
Nov 27th, 2005, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by theamcguy
You see the doctor for 20 min at 4pm after waiting 2 hours for your 2pm appointment he bills you $385. He is billing you for what he knows not what he does.

Not true: How much do you also pay the nurse or nurses, receptionist who took your call, the phone nurse who gave you advice and then set up your appointment? Nothing: your office call fees cover the pay those people earn as well as the physician.

Who pays for the rapidly rising malpractice insurance in a doctor's office? It comes out of that $385 (by the way, what kind of specialist are you seeing for $385 level 3 office calls?!).

Finally, if we're paying for the knowledge physicians have and practice, compare it to knowledge about wax and all purpose cleaner. Big difference

Pete-FWA
Nov 27th, 2005, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by theamcguy
On top of that the medicine he prescribes does not help so he has to do a retest and rediagnose (commonly called a comeback in the auto repair industry which usuall is done for free) and he charges another $385 plus no mention of the wasted $50 on medicine that did not help.

The human body is far more complex than any vehicle could hope to be. Coupled with the importance of caring for a human life, it puts this argument in a whole different league. Patients get a medicine and are asked to return for evaluation because everyone reacts differently. If we were all the same, we'd all be able to take one medicine and be cured.

The "comeback" you cite here isn't generally because the physician erred, it's because the combination of medication and the patient's condition didn't match. A repair is a repair: replace or rebuild the broken parts and the job is done. Make a wrong diagnosis under the hood and you have to eat crow and tell a customer why they now have to spend MORE money on a vehicle you supposedly fixed once.

Pete-FWA
Nov 27th, 2005, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by theamcguy
You tell me the difference between an doctor and a mechanic? One gets paid big bucks for diagnosing and fixing people the other makes a living diagnosing and fixing cars. The difference is certification.

Does this mean you're most concerned about the money you pay the physician? Would that mean you are most concerned about the money you'd take in on a tow, a detail, or a repair? Are we not concerned about our LIFE when we see a physician?

The whole reason I feel so strongly about this is that people assume those making high incomes are living on easy street. Next time someone is gravely ill, just ask for a tech or maybe a medical receptionist to care for that person. It would be cheaper, but the results will most likely be catastrophic. Sure, you see a physician in a room for 20 minutes, but a group of people make that visit possible. Their work coupled with extensive schooling and huge risk, both personal and financial, factor into why we pay more at the doctor than we do at the repair shop.

It's not about certification, it's about the value that our society puts on the goods or service we're buying.

theamcguy
Nov 28th, 2005, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by Pete-FWA
Does this mean you're most concerned about the money you pay the physician? Would that mean you are most concerned about the money you'd take in on a tow, a detail, or a repair? Are we not concerned about our LIFE when we see a physician?

The whole reason I feel so strongly about this is that people assume those making high incomes are living on easy street. Next time someone is gravely ill, just ask for a tech or maybe a medical receptionist to care for that person. It would be cheaper, but the results will most likely be catastrophic. Sure, you see a physician in a room for 20 minutes, but a group of people make that visit possible. Their work coupled with extensive schooling and huge risk, both personal and financial, factor into why we pay more at the doctor than we do at the repair shop.

It's not about certification, it's about the value that our society puts on the goods or service we're buying.

And society does not put a premium on our services because we are not certified. Certified services always cost more than non-certified. Example welder. Lots of guys know how to weld and are good at it but only a certain segment are certified welders or pipe welders. They command a premium over just a regular welder. Try building a nuclear plant, ship, submarine etc without a certified welder. Not going to happen. Electricians. Lot of guys can do wiring. Even the elelctricians helper can do the wiring but only the licensed electrician can sign off on it. I wired my own garage but had to call a licensed electrician in to sign off on it so I could get it inspected. Certification commands a premium. Our industry at all levels will not be looked in positive light until we prove to the public our knowledge. The is done by certification whether, doctor, lawyer, nurse, welder, emt, electrician, plumber they all get certified prior to demonstrating their knowledge on the public. We in the auto repair industry should do the same to prove to the public our competence just like other industry's have done. It should not be lets not do it because it has not been done up till now and it seems to be working. It should not be how much is this going to cost rather how much more will I make because of it.

buda
Nov 28th, 2005, 10:02 AM
In my final commentary on Certification let me say that it is not what the detailer thinks of Certification, it is what the customer thinks. And do not kid yourself, the customer sees certificates on the wall and it means something to them.

Of course, if you are mobile you will have difficulty displaying these somewhere. Maybe put a note about certification in your Yellow Page ad and on your business card, and even on your voice mail.

If you "got it" then, as Broadway Joe Namath used to say "flaunt it." If some of you youngsters don't know who Joe Namath is check him out on google.

If you promote the fact you have certification it will get you business. It is kind of like the lighthouse. You hear only about the ships that the lighthouse did not save, but you certainly don't hear about all the ships it saved.

ANSWERS TO THE TEST QUESTIONS:

LEATHERS

Analine
Nu Buck
Protected
Suede

Question: Which one is used in automobiles? What are it's properties and why is this important for the detailer to know?

PAINT SYSTEMS

Factory Assembly Line - 2K - Thermal Curing Paint System
Factory After Assembly Line - 2K Acid Catylized Thermal Curing Paint System
Aftermarket Paint System

Question? What is the difference and why is it important for the detailer to know?

ENGINE DEGREASER vs CARPET SHAMPOO

An engine degreaser contains caustics, namely sodium hydroxide which literally burns the dirt off engines. Of course, these same caustics will stain aluminum head covers so be careful. They have a pH of about 12 on a scale of 14. They are hot, hot, hot and can be corrosive if used on the wrong thing. Diluting an engine degreaser does not reduce the pH appreciably so it is still an engine degreaser.

A carpet shampoo also an alkaline chemical has only a pH of 8 to 9 (7 being neutral) and it contains brighteners and softeners for obvious reasons. A completely different chemical than an engine degreaser. Yet a huge number of detailers in the USA use engine degreaser to clean carpets and many other things and do not know what they don't know.

Doing that is like washing your hair with Joy or Tide liquid laundry detergent, of course they will work, but at what price to your hair and body?

Will answer the other question in another email.

Bud Abraham

buda
Nov 28th, 2005, 10:13 AM
A final answer to the question:

WHICH ALCOHOLS STAIN WHICH PLASTICS?

Unfortunately no one knows, not even the manufacturers. They only know that some alcohols stain some plastics used on panel covers.

A detailer should know this in order to not stain these plastic panel covers.

There is so much that I know detailers do not know that it is frightening.

That is what an effort at certification is all about, some way to insure that a detailer has some knowledge in their brain before they try and get their hands to do some work.

OK, I got it. Let us eliminate the "C" word and let us say that detailers should have a "diploma" verifying that they have taken courses in and are knowledgeable about:

a. Today and yesterday's Paint Systems - factory and aftermarket.

b. Knowledgeable in the chemistry and make up of the chemicals they use.

c. Knowledgeable in the various kinds of leather and how to clean and care for that leather.

d. Knowledgeable on the different types of custom wheels, clear-coated and polished only and how to clean and care for them.

e. Knowledgeable in the makeup and care of vinyl

f. Knowledgeable in how to recognize and remove stains from fabric upholstery and carpets.

g. Knowledgeable in the soils that are present in carpets and how to remove them properly.

I know few detailers that are knowledgeable in even 50% of these things.

What say you, no certification just a diploma from somone or some company that verifies that you have obtained the knowledge.

It is certainly better than no knowledge at all, right?

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

Scottwax
Dec 5th, 2005, 08:11 PM
Honestly, I'd probably be more interested if in the past nearly 12 years detailing full time even one single person inquired about any training or certification I've had.

The marketplace will ultimately determine if certification is needed. If consumers demand certified detailers the way they except ASE certified mechanics, then more detailers would be open to the cost and time required to be certified.

Mike Phillips
Dec 5th, 2005, 08:15 PM
That's a good point Scott, in all my years of detailing I've never had a customer ask me if I had any certifications or credentials in any form. Almost all my work comes from word-of-mouth referrals, people either like your work and tell their friends, or they don't like your work and tell their friends.

mirrorfinishman
Dec 6th, 2005, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by Mike Phillips
That's a good point Scott, in all my years of detailing I've never had a customer ask me if I had any certifications or credentials in any form. Almost all my work comes from word-of-mouth referrals, people either like your work and tell their friends, or they don't like your work and tell their friends.

Since I have never actually asked any doctors, lawyers or other professional people about their certifications or credentials, I'm not sure that I can agree with this thinking.

Of course, I am certainly impressed and it does mean something to me whenever I see certificates on the wall at the offices of these professionals. And I totally agree that promoting the fact that you have certification will get you more business. However, I have never really asked any professional about either their certifications or credentials, so I don't see where this type of thinking makes any sense.

For example;

My own detailing company has won the Courier-Post newspaper Reader's Choice Award eight out of ten years. Voted one of the best in the category for Automobile Detailing. Of course, I have always promoted this fact in newsletters, flyers and on my website. And it has certainly help me to get more business. Plenty of new customers. Now if I had not promoted this fact and just waited around for people to ask me if my company had ever won any reader choice awards; I'd still be sitting around waiting for people to ask.

The point is simply that just because someone hasn't asked about your credentials it doesn't mean that you can't use your certifications, credentials and other awards to further promote your business.

Certification has everything to do with how the customer views your buisness. It can clearly help to position your detailing business way above your competition. Let's face it; the more certifications, credentials and other awards you can show a current or prospective customer, the better.

buda
Dec 6th, 2005, 04:46 AM
Frank:

You are a true professional and a very smart businessman. One who understands that you can be the best detailer in town but it does no good, if you do not flaunt it.

You can tell people all over the city you are the best but that does not mean a thing to them.

Promoting awards, certification and certificates on the wall will, in fact, give you the creditability.

It is not about the technical "stuff" of detailing, it is about being a good businessman. It is the detail businessmen/women in this business that make the BIG bucks in detailing without being a working slave to the business.

Check out Ron Ketcham's posting about certification the the Mobileworks Detailing Forum, it is good.

Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

Scottwax
Dec 6th, 2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by mirrorfinishman

The point is simply that just because someone hasn't asked about your credentials it doesn't mean that you can't use your certifications, credentials and other awards to further promote your business.

Certification has everything to do with how the customer views your buisness. It can clearly help to position your detailing business way above your competition. Let's face it; the more certifications, credentials and other awards you can show a current or prospective customer, the better.

I think my photo album generates far more interest than any certificate I may be able to produce.

The point is, that very few customers probably care at all about certification. At least in my situation, most of my new customers come from referrals and to them, that is more important. If their picky friend is happy with my work, odds are they will be too. Even though most mechanics are ASE certified, the average person is still going to value a friend's referrence more than any certificate.

If a detailer certification program is going to work, it will also have to involve consumer education so customers understand how important it is to use a certified detailer and an organization backing the certification to make it worth something. If there is no follow up and no consequences for shoddy or unethical work, then the certificates have no value.

I believe Bud is very sincere about the need for such a program and I would agree there are a lot of hack detailers doing horrific work. I just don't see much demand on the part of the consumers for certification. How you go about changing that, I don't know.

mirrorfinishman
Dec 19th, 2005, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by buda
You can tell people all over the city you are the best but that does not mean a thing to them.

Promoting awards, certification and certificates on the wall will, in fact, give you the creditability.

Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

I recently received an email from one of my students in Canada. He had completed our online boat detailing course and wanted to make sure that he was going to receive his 'Certificate of Completion'. You see, he intends to start his own boat detailing business.

Now keep in mind that the online boat detailing course that I offer is basically designed to help beginners learn more about the do-it-yourself approach to detailing their own boat.

Since this student intends to start his own boat detailing business, it is clear that he wants to use his 'Certificate of Completion' to promote his creditability.

Just wanted to share this recent experience...

Shiny Lil Detlr
Dec 19th, 2005, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by mirrorfinishman
I recently received an email from one of my students in Canada. He had completed our online boat detailing course and wanted to make sure that he was going to receive his 'Certificate of Completion'. You see, he intends to start his own boat detailing business.

Now keep in mind that the online boat detailing course that I offer is basically designed to help beginners learn more about the do-it-yourself approach to detailing their own boat.

Since this student intends to start his own boat detailing business, it is clear that he wants to use his 'Certificate of Completion' to promote his creditability.

Just wanted to share this recent experience...

EXACTLY. That's what I've been saying all along here; people see that piece of paper on the wall and think "oh, he's certified/trained... he's dedicated which = good"

buda
Dec 19th, 2005, 05:50 AM
Charlie:

You are absolutely correct. From a marketing and public relations point of view a certificate on the wall makes a HUGE difference with consumers.

Yes, it might not mean a thing about your creditability as a detailer since there are no standards in this industry and anyone can get into the business and call themselves a detailer. But a customer coming for a detail service has no way to judge whether a detailer is good or not, other than how the shop or truck/trailer looks, how the detailer looks and how they speak.

Having a wall full of certificates adds creditability.

They may not say anything but if I can use an analogy of the lighthouse.

We hear about the ships the lighthouse does not save, but how many ships do we hear about that were saved? See the point.

If a detailer cannot see the advantage of having a certificate on the wall of his shop, there is nothing you or I can say to convince them. That is why you will always have an advantage over that type of detailer.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Tim Lingor
Dec 19th, 2005, 12:14 PM
Hey,

Just to chime in here and keep everyone posting to this thread on the same page....

While the validity of certification is an on-going debate, please do not support your position by mentioning courses you offer as this could be considered Spam; I am quite sure that was not the intent. :)

Thanks for your understanding! :)

Tim

Scottwax
Jan 2nd, 2006, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by buda


If a detailer cannot see the advantage of having a certificate on the wall of his shop, there is nothing you or I can say to convince them. That is why you will always have an advantage over that type of detailer.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Where do you suggest mobile detailers have a certificate?

Again, until the customer sees the value in certified detailers, I can't see spending money getting a certificate that so few will see anyway since I am mobile.

buda
Jan 2nd, 2006, 09:57 PM
That's why I am personally not much in favor of mobile detailing.

But you could put it on your business card; in your Yellow Page ad and in any print literatire you have and you can put it onl your truck or trailer.

As I say, if one cannot see the value then there is not much you can say to convince them.

Regards

Bud Abraham

buda
Jan 2nd, 2006, 09:57 PM
That's why I am personally not much in favor of mobile detailing.

But you could put it on your business card; in your Yellow Page ad and in any print literatire you have and you can put it onl your truck or trailer.

As I say, if one cannot see the value then there is not much you can say to convince them.

Regards

Bud Abraham

Scottwax
Jan 3rd, 2006, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by buda
That's why I am personally not much in favor of mobile detailing.

Huh? You aren't much in favor of mobile detailing because you don't have a place to hang a certificate? Are you serious?

Being mobile gives me a competitive edge in the Dallas area.


As I say, if one cannot see the value then there is not much you can say to convince them.



The point is, the average customer currently doesn't see the value in it. How do you propose to change that?

Chubs
Feb 9th, 2006, 05:57 PM
I agree with the need of certification!
Certification is a start, we also need proper training. Training in technique, chemical knowledge, and knowledge of what you are working on. Why wouldn’t you want the knowledge of what you’re working with in your profession? What if a chemical combination is dangerous when mixed. Some chemicals when mixed with others can kill you. Ever mix chlorine and muratic acid in its straight form, often used in large swimming pools. It creates phosgene gas, it will kill you, but when mixed properly into swimming pools it will never harm you. How many people know that propane is heavier than air? If you heat your garage with propane and suspect a leak, get out of there. Propane is oxygen depleting. The refrigerant in your air conditioning and refrigerators, is also oxygen depleting. How harmful is bleach and ammonia to your body, and how many people wear gloves when handling these items. How many of these chemicals is used on the wrong materials and finishes. Ever think of what gas does to your paint finish when your using it to remove tar? How hard can you buff the paint this time after some hack had it before you? I could keep going on and on with stuff like this. This is why we need proper training and certification in many things that we do, including detailing. We are too naïve today to realize the many dangers we face in day to day life that we take for granite. The only way to do it is by the industry as a whole. From the consumer, the little detailer all the way to the distributors, detailing companies, and into the paint and vehicle manufactures. We all need to work on proper training and certification. There is a lack of training everywhere you turn today and we all have become accustomed to it as standard practice. Some people think it’s just another way to make money. Of course it’s going to be making money, who in there right mind would do all this work for FREE. I’m all for whatever training and certifications I can get, in whatever profession I’m in. Right now it’s in the HVAC field. In a couple of years I hope to fulfill my dreams of my own detail shop. I’ve been detailing for over 9 years and still believe I have a lot to learn. I hope to have as much knowledge as I can and still be looking to learn more as I go. If you quite striving to do better and learn more with each day that goes by, then what is the sense of getting out of bed.

These are of my opinions and don’t intend to offend anyone with them,

Chubs