PDA

View Full Version : Removing VS. Hiding



Shaun Carollo
Aug 20th, 2005, 06:54 AM
I wanted to see what kind of polishes you guys use (compound, polish, finshing polish/glaze) and if they have any fillers in them. All the shops around me use polishes that are loaded with fillers and I am torn between whether to reorder my Menzerna polishes or go to something else that may cover up some swirls. This is not what I want to do, but it seems like customers like this. Do you think my final polish should have fillers in it?

Thanks,
Shaun

Mike Phillips
Aug 20th, 2005, 01:48 PM
How would you define the word filler?

Buellwinkle
Aug 20th, 2005, 07:54 PM
I think he means waxes that fill/hide minor swirls like NXT for example. If I polished my car everytime it swirled I would have no paint left, how do I know this, I did it, polished a black Suburban down to primer after buffing it monthly for 6 years. Since then I learned that a wax that has the ability to hide swirls is much better than over polishing and trying to remove swirls every time. For a long time I used Klasse AIO which has good swirl filling ability but it's a pain to put on/off as you have to apply it with a moist towel and then buff off before it dries (tough to do in summer) so I switched to NXT Tech Wax as I can do the entire car, let it dry and then wipe it off.

For times when you need to remove defects like swirls, what I use depends on the severity of the defects and hardness of the paint. Most of the time I use Meg's #83 polish with a PC buffer. If that doesn't do it I have other polishes I use with my rotary buffer. I wouldn't use a compound on a clear coated car, too risky, I would prefer to buff at a higher speed or use a harder pad or do multiple passes with a less aggresive product.

RamAirV1
Aug 21st, 2005, 05:17 AM
Maybe he means something that makes swirl marks less visible.

For a daily driver, you almost have to have a product that fills (hides) swirls. Most of us don't have the time to polish out swirls every time they appear, and they will appear. And for car owners that use pro-detailers, maybe they can't afford to have frequent full (with swirl removal) details.

So I agree with the use of swirl filling (hiding) products. When they get too bad for such a product to work, then it is time for the G100 and a cleaner/polish.

RamAirV1

Accumulator
Aug 21st, 2005, 05:48 AM
Yeah, if you're doing cars for people who continue to get marring, I'd use something with a little concealing ability. Otherwise you'll eventually have to start using a paint thickness gauge and telling customers that you've taken off all the clear you (safely) can. And at that point you'll *have* to use something that hides anyhow.

I'd try using something like #80 on a few cars and see how you feel about it. Maybe top it with a LSP like NXT and you could even consider putting a "pure polish"/glaze step in between the two.

Don't worry, it's not "cheating" if the customers are happy and you're saving their paint ;)

RamAirV1
Aug 21st, 2005, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Accumulator
Yeah, if you're doing cars for people who continue to get marring, I'd use something with a little concealing ability. Otherwise you'll eventually have to start using a paint thickness gauge and telling customers that you've taken off all the clear you (safely) can. And at that point you'll *have* to use something that hides anyhow.

I'd try using something like #80 on a few cars and see how you feel about it. Maybe top it with a LSP like NXT and you could even consider putting a "pure polish"/glaze step in between the two.

Don't worry, it's not "cheating" if the customers are happy and you're saving their paint ;)

A "filler" would be part of a maintenance program anyway.

:iagree:

RamAirV1

TexDetailer
Aug 23rd, 2005, 06:43 PM
So what is the best filler to use then? I know what you all mean by polishing the mess out of a daily driver, its just not worth it. A mild polish and good wax from time to time, but not 83 or stronger maany times a year to keep it "swirl free".

If you live in a dusty place, its even more of a problem.

rusty bumper
Aug 23rd, 2005, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by TexDetailer
So what is the best filler to use then? I know what you all mean by polishing the mess out of a daily driver, its just not worth it. A mild polish and good wax from time to time, but not 83 or stronger maany times a year to keep it "swirl free".

If you live in a dusty place, its even more of a problem.
Something like a mild to moderate cleaner/polish.

Such as, #80, #82, #9, or even a cleaner wax.....Then topped with NXT or some other good LSP.

TexDetailer
Aug 23rd, 2005, 08:03 PM
80 and NXT doesn't really fill scratches in, does it? That's a combo I already use. Thought something more thick was being used.

rusty bumper
Aug 23rd, 2005, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by TexDetailer
80 and NXT doesn't really fill scratches in, does it? That's a combo I already use. Thought something more thick was being used.
These two items should have some hiding ability, but you could try a pure polish like #7, #81, DC #2, and #5 just to name a few.

Edit: On second thought, if #80 and NXT are not hiding enough swirls, then you need to use a DA and something stronger (Like #83) to get those swirls out with.

buda
Aug 24th, 2005, 05:27 AM
As always in this industry when a question like this is posed it is difficult to answer because there are no standard terms to define what we are all meaning.

Let me give you "Bud Abraham's Definition of Detail Terms" to help us communicate clearly:

COMPOUND

A product formulated to correct a paint finish problem such as scratching, oxidation, dulling, etc. They contain or waxes or silicones.

POLISH

A product formulated to create a high shine and smooth the paint. It is used as a first step if there are no paint finish problems to enhance the paint finish before applying a protection product. These products typically contain silicones and maybe waxes.

SWIRL REMOVER

These products are designed to be used AFTER the compound to remove buffing swirls. When I say swirls I mean swirls, not scratches that are in the form of swirls. Often times detailers use too aggressive a compound and/or too aggressive a buffing pad when correcting a paint finish problem and create as many problems as they correct. We are talking about the light micro scratches that occur when using a cutting pad and compound.

They also will polish too, that is why we sell a product that both removes swirls and polishes, either way.

In this catagory there are swirl removers/eliminators that have sufficient abrasive in them to remove swirls, not fill them.

There are also swirl removers which are simply fillers, and when the car is washed a few times and the wax and swirl filler wears away you see the swirls again.

Either product would be more effective if the detailer made the right diagnosis on the paint in the first place and did not use too aggressive a compound nor too aggressive a pad.

WAXES OR PAINT SEALANTS

These are protection products to be applied to the paint for protecting the finish and adding to the shine.

Waxes are either carnuaba or synthetic carnuaba (micro-crystaline), the latter being more durable than natural carnuaba. There are also other types of waxes used in wax but for the most part these are the two main ingredients. Depending on cost, determines how good a wax is. The more expensive ingredients used, the more expensive the wax. They also contain silicone fluids. They are available in a paste, creme or liquid. One is not better than the other, it is just an adjust of ingredients that creates the state. They last from 2 weeks to 45 days under the best driving conditions.

Paint Sealants, are nothing more than an evolution of protection technology, that is wax technology. They can be formulated in a number of different ways, but the key is that they contain amino functional silicones which makes them different than a wax. Some contain wax. They last longer than a wax 3 to 6 months under the best driving conditions. They should not cost more than $23 a gallon. Never pay $45 a quart.

GLAZES

A word that is bantied around the industry to mean compound, swirl remover, polish, wax, paint sealant. Really confusing.

For clarity I define Glazes as a "body-shop safe" swirl remover or polish. Body shop safe because a glaze does not contain any waxes or silicones in the formulation because you cannot seal a new paint finish for 60 to 90 days after painting to allow all solvents to evaporate.

So, with these definitions I would ask the original poster to ask his questions again.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

Mike Phillips
Aug 24th, 2005, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by buda
As always in this industry when a question like this is posed it is difficult to answer because there are no standard terms to define what we are all meaning.

This is a problem. There is no legal controlling authority over the words and terms used in the car care products industry; everyone is free to use whatever word they like and define it as they see fit.

This confuses everyone especially Newbies entering into detailing as either a hobby or a business.

the other pc
Aug 24th, 2005, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
...If I polished my car everytime it swirled I would have no paint left, how do I know this, I did it, polished a black Suburban down to primer after buffing it monthly for 6 years... What product, applicator and application method were you using?


PC.

buda
Aug 24th, 2005, 08:06 AM
Only way to objectively know to some degree the amount of film left on the car, in this case, clear-coat is to use a digital paint thickness guage, and know how to use it to measure the clear coat film.

These cost about $400 to $500 and are worth it if you can use it.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

buda
Aug 24th, 2005, 08:35 AM
Mike:

I agree, but all of us in the industry need to help detailers with some type of consistent defintions.

If the chemical manufacturers will not or cannot come up with consistent definitions for products then I would seriously suggest that detailers at least consider the definition of catagories as I have suggested so that they can understand what products they are looking for.

Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

Mike Phillips
Aug 24th, 2005, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by buda
Mike:

I agree, but all of us in the industry need to help detailers with some type of consistent defintions.


What's your suggestion?

buda
Aug 24th, 2005, 11:17 AM
Mike:

My suggestions would be the same as my posting above:

a. Identify compound generically.

b. Identify polishes generically.

c. Identify swirl removers generically as:
1. Fillers
2. Eliminators (with abrasive)

d. Identify waxes generically

e. Identify paint sealants generically

f. Identify glazes generically

I find that my customers clearly understand what the paint finishing chemicals are when explained as I have above. With these definitions in mind they can talk to a Meguiar's rep; an Auto Magic rep; etc and know what it is they want to purchase.

Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

2000
Aug 24th, 2005, 11:51 AM
doesn't that over simpifily things? I mean some of megs products (and others) kind of cross in to two catagorys, which is where the confussion comes in. but if they try to push it into only one catagory they loss the costomers that didn't realize the product could do the other. I quess I'm trying to say your list is great if everything was black and white, but in reality aren't most products really gray? just asking.:confused:

buda
Aug 24th, 2005, 12:34 PM
Sorry, I left one catagory out:: ONE STEPS; CLEANER/GLAZES; ONE SHOT, ETC.

As you know, these products are a combination of light abrasives and some type of wax or protection.

So that is the other catagory I left out.

That should cover the entire gammit of paint finishing chemicals.

There is no reason why these definitions would not work. They work for me and I sell chemicals.

The problem is that chemical companies do not want to make it that simple, in my opinion.

They sell sizzle as much as the steak.

Regards
Bud Abraham