M105 Tip

[AeroCleanse]

I found this tip in a round about way, but I'm posting the link to it. I've had less than spectacular results with M105 and a wool pad on 2 white cars.

http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/112746-2-passes-m105-wool-no-luck.html

[BlueZero]

Some good information there. I bookmarked that thread. Thanks for sharing!

[Forever New]

Wow, great results on that Honda with Kevins advice.

[J. A. Michaels]

Very helpful. Thanks for sharing it. I also have bookmarked it for future reference. Thanks a lot.

[H.E.D]

thanks! very useful information will take notes!

[Justin Murphy]

Wow that little process by Keving ought to be stickied or maybe just put on 105's label!

Thanks for this.

[yalerd]

Saving on my head!
I've talked with Kevin before and man he knows a lot of stuff!!!

[Tom Weed]

I found this tip in a round about way, but I'm posting the link to it. I've had less than spectacular results with M105 and a wool pad on 2 white cars.

http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/112746-2-passes-m105-wool-no-luck.html

I saw that thread when Kevin posted it, shortly after I tried this with a wool solo pad and 151 and it worked like a charm...

[Mike Phillips]

From page 3 of the thread, the OP, (Original Poster), comes back after putting Kevin's advice into practice


THIS PROCESS WORKS!!!! Thank you so much waxman! I did exactly as you said, prime the pad thoroughly, laid about a 5-6" bead down, 1000rpm, worked until drying, then spritz with water, and keep going until it finished down. Worked flawlessly!

Here the results:
BEFORE:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/TheTwanksta94/2001%20NFR%20S2000/IMG_4637.jpg

After several different processes including 2 passes with M105/Wool(normal), 2 passes with SIP/Wool, SIP/Orange, SIP/White..NOTHING WORKED!

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/TheTwanksta94/2001%20NFR%20S2000/IMG_4640.jpg

Now after ONE "pass" using new process from iamwaxman, followed by 106FA/white:
The light is out of focus because I had it to show the swirls not a perfect reflection of light..

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/TheTwanksta94/2001%20NFR%20S2000/IMG_4638.jpg







Just proves the point that besides choosing the right product using good technique is equally important of a factor. Kevin knows as well as anyone that's used M105 correctly what the product is capable of doing when used correctly. The swirls and scratches in the before picture look completely removable by M105 with a wool pad and a rotary buffer if used correctly and the above copied and pasted conversations proves that point.

Besides that, whenever you're new to a product just because it doesn't work the first time doesn't mean the product doesn't work, it may mean you need to spend some more time with it as practice makes perfect. Over the years we've had many people come to this forum saying the bought ScratchX and couldn't get it to work, then through this forum we help to tweak their technique and see them through to success. Also just goes to show how valuable the helpful members of a forum can be. :xyxthumbs

Hat's off to Kevin for seeing that forum member through to success...

It's in keeping with our forum philosophy of,

"Each one teach one"

:bow :bow :bow

[RDVT4ME]

As Mike stated above....TECHNIQUE IS EVERYTHING

[Tom Weed]

Would this be the result of the micro abrasives that are left which are on the wool pad and paint being lubricated and used again since they dont break down?

When I did tried this with 151 and a Solo Wool pad, I was buffing the car with 151, thought it looked okay, but after misting the pad with Last Touch and rebuffing, the surface area looked much better.

Which of the products can be used in this fashion?

[Mike Phillips]

Would this be the result of the micro abrasives that are left which are on the wool pad and paint being lubricated and used again since they don't break down?


Theoretically since the abrasives don't break down, (at least not like diminishing abrasives break-down), then re-wetting the surface is simply re-lubricating the surface which enables you to continue buffing with the same abrasives already on the surface longer.

Keep in mind that besides the abrasives there are other chemicals and ingredients in our paint care products that are being used up and of course your generating removed paint into the mix as a part of abrading the paint. Also keep in mind that adding a liquid to the mix can affect the other ingredients in any product. So at some point you do want to stop buffing, wipe the residue off, clean your pad and start fresh.

Another mantra we teach people at all our classes and on this forum is to...

"Always work clean"


I'll see if we can get an official position on this practice posted today...

:)

[Justin Murphy]

The only thing is, what about the people that purchase 105 and used it the wrong way without knowing about the internet? A lot do not go on here. Should this method actually be put on the label as instructions?

[Mike Phillips]

Should this method actually be put on the label as instructions?




I'll see if we can get an official position on this practice posted today...


Patience...

:)

[Justin Murphy]

Sorry Mike..........Didn't see your earlier post!
Just wish I had known about this technique....uh.......about 5 months ago!

Will it still work with the "new" 105?

[Mike Pennington]

Would this be the result of the micro abrasives that are left which are on the wool pad and paint being lubricated and used again since they don't break down?

When I did tried this with 151 and a Solo Wool pad, I was buffing the car with 151, thought it looked okay, but after misting the pad with Last Touch and rebuffing, the surface area looked much better.

Which of the products can be used in this fashion?


Meguiar's Official Position

Using a wetting-agent with M105 and M205 (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29247)

There has been some discussions regarding using a supplemental wetting agent to assist in the buffing process. We thought we would share our thoughts.

We know that optimum buffing results are achieved with the right amount of lubrication and when the paint surface/pad are kept clean using the right methods. We also know that ambient temperature and humidity play a role in the intended performance of all products.

We have observed the three main reasons someone might be inclined to use a supplemental wetting agent:



The Mfg recommends it as part of the process



The climate is working against desired or optimal polishing performance



The user prefers an adjusted buffing cycle
With that said, all of our formulations are designed and developed to perform best when used without any type of supplemental wetting agent. (supplemental wetting agent would be considered water or any other chemicals that are sprayed into the pad or onto the surface while buffing).

While we know people use water and other liquids to do this, we do not recommend or advocate this as a process for best results. Best results can most often be achieved without a supplemental wetting agent by applying our machine polishing products, as prescribed, in the directions which are on the product label.

We know there are other Mfg’s recommending supplemental wetting agents in their process, so if you try this technique to experiment, we would highly recommend only using M34 Final Inspection (http://www.meguiarsdirect.com/product_detail.asp?T1=MEG+FINAL+16) for the wetting agent.

M34 Final Inspection will have the least effect on our formulations from an overall performance stand point. M34 Final Inspection is our recommended product for priming new or dry buffing pads, thus our product development and pre-market testing supports this use.

M34 Final Inspection is validated as the most compatible with our machine polishing products, while water or other supplemental wetting agents have not been validated.

We hope this helps...

:)

[AeroCleanse]

Mike,

I understand that is Meguiar's current position. However if the official position does not give the results desired and another method does, perhaps Meguair's should change its official position.

I have been unimpressed with M105 using the official method. If I try the other method and it works better, I will be using that method, or just not use M105 anymore.

[Mike Pennington]

We certainly respect the fact that you and others may use the wetting agent method with great results. We would encourage you to continue if that is the case. However, our goal is to caution new users that using a wetting agent is not our preferred or recommended method to begin with :xyxthumbs

Thanks for understanding !

Mike

PS - We would be curious to hear your comments on the new M105 and to see if you would still feel that way :D

[Kevin Brown]

For clarification...
The original post was referring to original formula M105 as used with a rotary machine.

At no time during the the original post did I recommend that water be introduced into the buffing cycle as a way to ADD lubrication. In fact, adding water to the equation often can REDUCE lubrication. This is why I mentioned in the post that the user would likely see an increase in swirling:

"I think you'll see a 50% improvement in the cut, but you'll probably see an increase in swirling (it can be easily removed)."

The reason I recommended a mist of water in this situation was not for the purpose of adding lube. A follow-up post in the same thread was very specific as to why I believe that the addition of water helps the cutting performance:

"With a wool pad, the application of water is not so much needed as lubrication, but it helps to loosen the abrasive from the wool fibers (allowing the abrasives to roll about freely between the pad and paint surface). It also helps the pad more easily contour to the paint surface (effectively increasing the surface-area of the pad per revolution)."

Water can actually displace lubricating agents from the pad and paint surface. Sure, it may momentarily act as a lube, but it is not long lasting and not necessarily slippery. If anything, water is simply a wetting agent. The water wets the wool fibers, makes them more pliable & bendable, helps to readjust the abrasive particle's positioning. Once the wool fibers moisten, the wool fibers may adjust disposition and end up lying tightly against each other; the individual fibers may also more readily contour (or glide upon) the paint surface. The momentary increase in weight water can add certainly affects the pad's rotating force... and on and on and on. So, an assumption that water can only affect the buffing procedure as a lubricating agent is false.

If you're wondering about using a supplemental wetting agent every time you use a rotary and original formula M105, the follow-up post mentions:

"While the misting of water will help the foam more rapidly remove defects, you're likely going to see a decrease in cycle-length (as compared to a no water), and an increase of stuck-on abrasive (to the pad itself). With a foam pad, there are no fibers to twist, bend, and reshape (helping to loosen the abrasive). Further, the foam has lots of tiny pockets that the abrasive can enter (and then attach to). Water seems to speed the onset of abrasive-clumping (not a good thing when final polishing). The particles gather and fill the pad pores. A layer of flash-dried abrasive rapidly covers the pad, and will require major cleaning (water & soap, or a pad cleaning machine)."

I mentioned water because the original poster was being bombarded with recommendations, most of which required him to purchase additional items. Since I knew he would have water at his disposal, I felt that it was the simplest product he could use without having to purchase anything else. Of course, M34 is a mainstay in our industry and would have been a great candidate, too.

Finally, there was no guarantee given that this method would work:

"I won't PROMISE a better result, but I am pretty sure you're going to GET a better result."

Hope this helps to clear things up.
I am here to: help, educate, entertain, and learn! :doublethumbsup2

[asim_296]

thanks everyone for the great clarification.:bow

[Justin Murphy]

That clears things up a lot Kevin.
Thanks........once again.